Linebreeding / Inbreeding

[greenwillowhereford II]

I think you've summed it up pretty well.

A friend sold a bull to another breeder who had a percentage of the same bloodline, and the same type of breeding program, culling practices, etc. Part of their agreement was that he got his pick of the sons of this bull. I believe this is an acceptable practice in linebreeding if it is used in moderation, which in this case it is.

 

[novatech]

With all the talk on the other threads about cross breeding and line breeding I thought this would be the appropriate place for my question.
I know about hybrid vigor, longevity, and fertility advantages when breeding for F1,s. When line breeding why could not one breed these same characteristics into his cattle? Are they less heritable than the other traits. Is there a list of how heritable each of the traits are? OK leave hybrid vigor out. But average daily gain or NFI could be used.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

There are those who HAVE bred these traits into their cattle. Richard Day took a solid foundation of the Turner Ranch/Hazlett cattle, and for years since has increased weaning wieghts while retaining fertility, longevity, and disposition, and I feel he has probably improved muscling and disease resistance, and udders. If a cow is not fertile, she goes to the sale barn. If she indexes at the bottom of the herd for calves weaning weights a couple of years, she's gone. ETC. After so many years, you have a herd that retains breed characteristics, has adequate performance for about any reasonable person, thickness abundant, probably the best set of udders you will ever find, and fifteen and sixteen year old cows still wean 600+ pound calves. The senior herd sire is about to finish his career at twelve years old.

I think Frank Felton did a pretty good job of fixing the traits he was looking for.

When folks talk about how much longer the F1 female lasts, they are talking about averages. There are bloodlines available within breeds that are going to be hard to outlast.

 

[novatech]

There are those who HAVE bred these traits into their cattle. Richard Day took a solid foundation of the Turner Ranch/Hazlett cattle, and for years since has increased weaning wieghts while retaining fertility, longevity, and disposition, and I feel he has probably improved muscling and disease resistance, and udders. If a cow is not fertile, she goes to the sale barn. If she indexes at the bottom of the herd for calves weaning weights a couple of years, she's gone. ETC. After so many years, you have a herd that retains breed characteristics, has adequate performance for about any reasonable person, thickness abundant, probably the best set of udders you will ever find, and fifteen and sixteen year old cows still wean 600+ pound calves. The senior herd sire is about to finish his career at twelve years old.

I think Frank Felton did a pretty good job of fixing the traits he was looking for.

When folks talk about how much longer the F1 female lasts, they are talking about averages. There are bloodlines available within breeds that are going to be hard to outlast.

Given this it would seem that the best way to go for terminal is line bred cattle, top and bottom, produceing F1,s for the feed lot. Would this be a resonable plan? Or F1 replacement heifers that would be bred to produce terminals.? Hope you say yes because it is mine. If not I would rather know now.
Thanks for the response.

 

[dun]

F1 females from 2 maternal breeds bred to a pure bred terminal would be the best way to maximize the calves. But to do it you either have to have a source of F1s that work in your managment and environment or maintain a certain number of purebred cows to generate the F1 replacements.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

There are those who HAVE bred these traits into their cattle. Richard Day took a solid foundation of the Turner Ranch/Hazlett cattle, and for years since has increased weaning wieghts while retaining fertility, longevity, and disposition, and I feel he has probably improved muscling and disease resistance, and udders. If a cow is not fertile, she goes to the sale barn. If she indexes at the bottom of the herd for calves weaning weights a couple of years, she's gone. ETC. After so many years, you have a herd that retains breed characteristics, has adequate performance for about any reasonable person, thickness abundant, probably the best set of udders you will ever find, and fifteen and sixteen year old cows still wean 600+ pound calves. The senior herd sire is about to finish his career at twelve years old.

I think Frank Felton did a pretty good job of fixing the traits he was looking for.

When folks talk about how much longer the F1 female lasts, they are talking about averages. There are bloodlines available within breeds that are going to be hard to outlast.

Given this it would seem that the best way to go for terminal is line bred cattle, top and bottom, produceing F1,s for the feed lot. Would this be a resonable plan? Or F1 replacement heifers that would be bred to produce terminals.? Hope you say yes because it is mine. If not I would rather know now.
Thanks for the response.

I think that would work.

Given enough time and money, I'd love to do some experiments within my breed that I think would work. I've already used Day genetics on Flying G genetics, and have been pleased, but I would like to (and someday hope to) put a Lents bred bull on Day cows, and on Feltons cows. I am using some Feltons influenced genetics already, through the Flying G connection. One of my herd building heifers is out of a Flying G cow who is Mohican Tradition on the top side, traces back to a FGR Victor Anxiety 3 on the bottom; this heifer was sired by Day Rupert Tone 092. According to the plan, we'll turn her out with FGR Reed Hudson R34 in February or March... He's Felton bred on the top side, and if all goes well, we'll get our first bunch on the ground by him in March, one of which will be out of a heifer sired by by R34's half brother who was also Felton influenced on top.

Sorry for being so longwinded..

 

[novatech]

According to Jim Lents you can stabilize a herd in 3 generations.
Given that, it will take me approx. 8 years to get there.
I plan on taking a short cut and buying semen from some producers that have done exactly what I am attempting. There bulls go back to the exact same bull my cows go back to. The tough part will be culling when the bad stuff appears. Some of that will not show up for a long time, longevity, udders, and the like. Just hope I can find someone that can takeover my cattle that has the same goal in mind. I am not getting any younger, and dragging genetics up from the past takes a long time.

 

[chipsahoy]

"The Basis of Linebreeding" by J.H. Lents, Is back in print]

I've visited Jim's operation; spent about a half a day on the grand tour. He drove us through all but one or two pastures. He has probably the most complete linebred operation in the world, with over 100 years of continuous linebreeding. They are peas in a pod, and when DNA tested are more nearly identical than any other Hereford line. Jim told me that the way you start linebreeding is with half-siblings, then branch out a little within the same family tree, never exceeding 50% from one individual. .

[/quote


I have been studying Linebreeding and closed flocks for a while now. I am not really interested in starting with the parent/offspring matings, so Mr Lents work is intriguing to me. However, I can't seem to learn what he does after those first half sibling matings. Would someone be so kind as to expand a little on what it means when you say " then branch out a little within the same family tree"? Your help would be greatly appreciated in this matter.

 

[chipsahoy]

No one has an opinion of Mr Lents Breeding Plan? I am wondering something, if it is the basis of line breeding and the way that the old timers use to do it, and the way that it should be done to keep the percentage of blood of any one animal under 50 % ,........ Then Why is it such a secret???? I ordered the book yesterday, So hopefully it will come before Christmas. The problem is I am working on a physicality design before the ground freezes and was hoping to know something about line breeding before that.

 

[KNERSIE]

No one has an opinion of Mr Lents Breeding Plan? I am wondering something, if it is the basis of line breeding and the way that the old timers use to do it, and the way that it should be done to keep the percentage of blood of any one animal under 50 % ,........ Then Why is it such a secret???? I ordered the book yesterday, So hopefully it will come before Christmas. The problem is I am working on a physicality design before the ground freezes and was hoping to know something about line breeding before that.

Do a search of the same topic on here, I have recently explained the whole process (within the last 3 or 4 months)

 

[chipsahoy]

viewtopic.php?uid=21397&f=8&t=85570&start=0

From what I can find, the link above seems to be the post that you are referring to. I ask a couple of questions over there just to clarify a couple of things. I Guess when I searched before I didn't find it, because it didn't reference J Lents, which is what I was searching. Thanks for the help, I really appreciate you taking the time to help beginners.