Linebreeding / Inbreeding

[novatech]

When line breeding one must choose animals as close to perfection as possible. On top of that a lot of research should be done on animals throughout their pedigree, searching out bad traits that may arise.
I believe it is different than any other breeding in the culling process. What you end up with as keepers will have more effect on passing on the good and bad to their progeny in the future, since you are doubling up on the genes.
This is as much a question as it is a statement.
So please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[dun]

When line breeding one must choose animals as close to perfection as possible. On top of that a lot of research should be done on animals throughout their pedigree, searching out bad traits that may arise.
I believe it is different than any other breeding in the culling process. What you end up with as keepers will have more effect on passing on the good and bad to their progeny in the future, since you are doubling up on the genes.
This is as much a question as it is a statement.
So please correct me if I am wrong.

You hit it on the head. And that is exactly the reason the majority of people shouldn;t do it. The inability or unwillingness to cull mercilously isn't there.

 

[novatech]

Here is something that I thought I would pass along. It shows what one can produce using proper line breeding techniques.


http://www.imperatorbrahmans.com/

 

[Bluestem]

Here is something that I thought I would pass along. It shows what one can produce using proper line breeding techniques.


http://www.imperatorbrahmans.com/

Looks like you have been doing some homework. It could save you 40 years of breeding work. I'm still searching. Figure my son will have a good herd.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

"The Basis of Linebreeding" by J.H. Lents, Is back in print.

I've visited Jim's operation; spent about a half a day on the grand tour. He drove us through all but one or two pastures. He has probably the most complete linebred operation in the world, with over 100 years of continuous linebreeding. They are peas in a pod, and when DNA tested are more nearly identical than any other Hereford line. Jim told me that the way you start linebreeding is with half-siblings, then branch out a little within the same family tree, never exceeding 50% from one individual.

I'd agree that culling needs to be rigorous, and most don't have what it takes. Not sure if I do.

I'm not saying that you should or should not agree with the direction that Jim has taken with his cattle, but that he has accomplished what he wanted to accomplish. I love the look and carcass quality of his cattle. I't's hard for me to get used to nothing over frame 4.5, and 450# weaning weights.

BTW, this is the same old greenwillow from years past, just couldn't get the old account to work.

 

[novatech]

When line breeding one must choose animals as close to perfection as possible. On top of that a lot of research should be done on animals throughout their pedigree, searching out bad traits that may arise.
I believe it is different than any other breeding in the culling process. What you end up with as keepers will have more effect on passing on the good and bad to their progeny in the future, since you are doubling up on the genes.
This is as much a question as it is a statement.
So please correct me if I am wrong.

You hit it on the head. And that is exactly the reason the majority of people shouldn;t do it. The inability or unwillingness to cull mercilously isn't there.

When I was a kid I recall a very well known ranch sending cattle to the sale barn marked for slaughter only. I acquired a big respect for them. Don't see that much anymore. Could be economics or just more greed than we had back then. Seems like people have developed there marketing skills better than their breeding skills.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Here's an old definition:

Linebreeding is what you call it when things work.

Inbreeding is what you call it when it doesn't work.

Excellent defination!

Inbreeding doesn't work period. I would never breed a dam back to her offspring etc.

Linebreeding a sire back to his offspring is pretty darn safe.

Breeding "cousins" is pretty darn safe but you are not producing a "line".

 

[sizmic]

My linebred/inbred calf hit the ground last night. Everything went off without a hitch except its a heifer!

Sizmic

 

[George Monk]

linebreeding is when I forget to close the gate. Inbreeding is when the bull gets out on his own. :lol:

 

[fourstates]

It does not matter genetically if you breed a sire to a daughter or a dam to her son. They are still only 50% related.

It is not a moral issue, it is a management tool. Incest is a human taboo. Animals can't "sin".

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

It does not matter genetically if you breed a sire to a daughter or a dam to her son. They are still only 50% related.

It is not a moral issue, it is a management tool. Incest is a human taboo. Animals can't "sin".

But the calf is 75% of one animal, and according to Lents, you don't want to directly exceed the 50% mark. I've known a lot of commercial breeders do it and just sell the calves.

 

[sizmic]

The calf is not 75% of one animal, remember that one animal has 2 sets of genes. The calf just born here is a little over 25% inbred.

Sizmic

 

[novatech]

One important fact that some may overlook. Line breeding/inbreeding usually leads to less efficient (for lack of a better term) cattle. The reason for this is that it is the opposite of heterosis, breeding animals that are dissimilar genetically. Where as with line breeding they are usually pretty close together.
Just another fact that will cause a lot more culls than keepers.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

One important fact that some may overlook. Line breeding/inbreeding usually leads to less efficient (for lack of a better term) cattle. The reason for this is that it is the opposite of heterosis, breeding animals that are dissimilar genetically. Where as with line breeding they are usually pretty close together.
Just another fact that will cause a lot more culls than keepers.

I believe there comes a point when enough culling has been done that this is no longer true. I personally know a breeder who has steadily linebred for 40-50 years, and continuously increased weaning weights and quality through rigorous culling until bad udders and feet, etc are nearly unheard of, and he has a consistent product to sell. A great worth of the line-bred animal is its progeny from other bloodlines or breeds. I guess I am saying that the practice at least has its place in the industry.

Sizmic, I was simply trying to say that according to Lents, he doesn't recommend breeding any closer than half siblings, especially once the line has been established. He also told me of a few exceptional individuals who were mated to their own offspring multiple times with never a defect, but I wouldn't want to make it a practice.

 

[novatech]

One important fact that some may overlook. Line breeding/inbreeding usually leads to less efficient (for lack of a better term) cattle. The reason for this is that it is the opposite of heterosis, breeding animals that are dissimilar genetically. Where as with line breeding they are usually pretty close together.
Just another fact that will cause a lot more culls than keepers.

I believe there comes a point when enough culling has been done that this is no longer true. I personally know a breeder who has steadily linebred for 40-50 years, and continuously increased weaning weights and quality through rigorous culling until bad udders and feet, etc are nearly unheard of, and he has a consistent product to sell. A great worth of the line-bred animal is its progeny from other bloodlines or breeds. I guess I am saying that the practice at least has its place in the industry.

Sizmic, I was simply trying to say that according to Lents, he doesn't recommend breeding any closer than half siblings, especially once the line has been established. He also told me of a few exceptional individuals who were mated to their own offspring multiple times with never a defect, but I wouldn't want to make it a practice.

You are exactly right "rigorous culling " is what it is all about until you get the consistency you are looking for. As dun said very few have the discipline to do it.
I am becoming increasingly aware that I may have the discipline but not the longevity. It takes a long time to get there.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

That's when it would be nice to continue a foundation someone else has already laid, or have a son or daughter who would continue your work. That's really what both Richard Day and the Lents family have done.

 

[KNERSIE]

That's when it would be nice to continue a foundation someone else has already laid, or have a son or daughter who would continue your work. That's really what both Richard Day and the Lents family have done.

That brings a question up I've asked numerous people, including linebreeders, but no-one has yet given me a satisfactory answer.

If a problem comes up in a linebred closed herd, and say its something like high tailheads, which wouldn't neccesarily kill the breeding program. Could that problem be addressed without bringing new blood in? If you need to bring another trait in and have to go outside the closed gene pool, which would be the best way to do it?

I am almost leaning towards bringing a cow in (preferably out of the same family, but from another herd that is strong in the desired trait) and flush her to one of your linebred bulls that is the better one in that trait. What are your thoughts on handling such a problem? Is my plan feasible or would it difuse the genetics too much?

 

[Bluestem]

That's when it would be nice to continue a foundation someone else has already laid, or have a son or daughter who would continue your work. That's really what both Richard Day and the Lents family have done.

That brings a question up I've asked numerous people, including linebreeders, but no-one has yet given me a satisfactory answer.

If a problem comes up in a linebred closed herd, and say its something like high tailheads, which wouldn't neccesarily kill the breeding program. Could that problem be addressed without bringing new blood in? If you need to bring another trait in and have to go outside the closed gene pool, which would be the best way to do it?

I am almost leaning towards bringing a cow in (preferably out of the same family, but from another herd that is strong in the desired trait) and flush her to one of your linebred bulls that is the better one in that trait. What are your thoughts on handling such a problem? Is my plan feasible or would it difuse the genetics too much?

A problem in a linebred herd should show itself early and culled. As linebreeding continues your culled cattle should decrease. A problem should not just show up if you have been linebreeding for some time.


I don't think it is necessary to bring in new blood. If I brought another cow in, I would treat her as another herd. Linebreed her offspring for numerous generations. Cull heavy. Introduce that line to my main herd and cull heavy.

 

[KNERSIE]

That's when it would be nice to continue a foundation someone else has already laid, or have a son or daughter who would continue your work. That's really what both Richard Day and the Lents family have done.

That brings a question up I've asked numerous people, including linebreeders, but no-one has yet given me a satisfactory answer.

If a problem comes up in a linebred closed herd, and say its something like high tailheads, which wouldn't neccesarily kill the breeding program. Could that problem be addressed without bringing new blood in? If you need to bring another trait in and have to go outside the closed gene pool, which would be the best way to do it?

I am almost leaning towards bringing a cow in (preferably out of the same family, but from another herd that is strong in the desired trait) and flush her to one of your linebred bulls that is the better one in that trait. What are your thoughts on handling such a problem? Is my plan feasible or would it difuse the genetics too much?

A problem in a linebred herd should show itself early and culled. As linebreeding continues your culled cattle should decrease. A problem should not just show up if you have been linebreeding for some time.


I don't think it is necessary to bring in new blood. If I brought another cow in, I would treat her as another herd. Linebreed her offspring for numerous generations. Cull heavy. Introduce that line to my main herd and cull heavy.

I agree in theory, but in reality stuff happens.

I was thinking of a very well known closed linebred herd that has some traits I regard as unwanted, just curious what the options would be should you want to improve on those traits

 

[novatech]

That's when it would be nice to continue a foundation someone else has already laid, or have a son or daughter who would continue your work. That's really what both Richard Day and the Lents family have done.

That brings a question up I've asked numerous people, including linebreeders, but no-one has yet given me a satisfactory answer.

If a problem comes up in a linebred closed herd, and say its something like high tailheads, which wouldn't neccesarily kill the breeding program. Could that problem be addressed without bringing new blood in? If you need to bring another trait in and have to go outside the closed gene pool, which would be the best way to do it?

I am almost leaning towards bringing a cow in (preferably out of the same family, but from another herd that is strong in the desired trait) and flush her to one of your linebred bulls that is the better one in that trait. What are your thoughts on handling such a problem? Is my plan feasible or would it difuse the genetics too much?

A problem in a linebred herd should show itself early and culled. As linebreeding continues your culled cattle should decrease. A problem should not just show up if you have been linebreeding for some time.


I don't think it is necessary to bring in new blood. If I brought another cow in, I would treat her as another herd. Linebreed her offspring for numerous generations. Cull heavy. Introduce that line to my main herd and cull heavy.

I agree in theory, but in reality stuff happens.

I was thinking of a very well known closed linebred herd that has some traits I regard as unwanted, just curious what the options would be should you want to improve on those traits

If his entire herd has the same bad trait, then I would say you would have to bring in outside blood, Hopefully of another line breed source of the same quality but without that trait.
If all the animals do not have the undesirable trait I would say there is still some culling to do.
But what do I know I'm still learning. ;-)