Inbreeding coefficient?

[BEJ]

Just wondering what everyone's opinion on how much line breeding is to much…I know the old saying if it works it's line breeding and if it doesn't it's inbreeding but how do you figure out the coefficients? I have just 8 registered Simmental and they all have hooks shearforce in the pedigree 3-5 generations back and majority of the bulls I wanna try on AI all have him within 2-4 generations…I don't want to get the blood to thick but wouldn't mind getting my replacements I keep more consistent…side note I have no intention on keeping bulls back just the top end of the heifers to grow and build my herd…thanks!

 

[Rmc]

When figuring your inbred coefficient/degree of relatedness don't forget to add in you breeds base degree of relatedness.

 

[Son of Butch]

Just wondering what everyone's opinion on how much line breeding is too much….

It's generally accepted as no more than 6.25%
I'd suggest in general you want no closer than a grandson x granddaughter mating

2 unrelated parents = 0% inbreeding coefficient
0.195% a great grandson x great great great granddaughter
0.391% a great grandson x great great granddaughter
0.781 a grandson x great great granddaughter
1.563 a grandson x great granddaughter or vice versa = totally acceptable and possibly most desirable
3.125 a grandson x granddaughter
6.25% a son x grandaughter = a Shearforce son x Shearforce granddaughter
12.5% 1/2 brother x 1/2 sister
25% full brother x full sister
25% father x daughter
50% = mating clones

search pedigree for other individuals related to one another, other than by Hooks Shearforce

 

[Rmc]

It's generally accepted as no more than 6.25%
I'd suggest that you want no more than a grandson x granddaughter mating 3.125%

2 unrelated parents = 0% inbreeding coefficient
0.195% a great grandson x great great great granddaughter
0.391% a great grandson x great great granddaughter
0.781 a grandson x great great granddaughter
1.563 a grandson x great granddaughter
3.125 a grandson x granddaughter
6.25% a son x grandaughter = a Shearforce son x Shearforce granddaughter
12.5% 1/2 brother x 1/2 sister
25% full brother x full sister
25% father x daughter
50% = mating clones

search pedigree for other individuals that may be related to one another other than by Hooks Shearforce

Not quite.
3.125 would only share a single common great grandparent.
The mean of the Holstein breed is 3.3
If you are mating two registered animals of the same breed you will never end up with 0
The line 1 Herefords are around 10 to each other

 

[Son of Butch]

Yes the founder effect, all same breed animals will always be related to a distant ancestor, so 0% impossible.

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

Doesn't the breed association have it ?
American Wagyu Assocation has a calculator.

 

[Ebenezer]

You are not doing much if you don't get to 15% or higher. That is, if you want to really do linebreeding. Otherwise it is just sales hype and blue smoke. The real question is always "Why linebreed?" It takes superior animals with highly desirable traits to seek that route and your efforts are going to either expose their extreme good or hidden problems. There are excellent reasons to linebreed but few want to do that and risk the consequences.

 

[Allenw]

I would use the bulls and not worry a bit about it.

 

[BEJ]

I would use the bulls and not worry a bit about it.

I just started a AI program last year I'm only running 70 head my thoughts to get more consistent set of cows and calves was to ai everything to one bull and keep my replacements out of what's born in the first 21 days and use the same bull two years in a row so I would end up with majority half sibs and some full sibs… with the land I have I'm only able to run about 80-85 pairs n keep 15-20 replacements back on a average-good year so instead of renting/buying more land I ideally want to get to the point where I'm selling 15-20 4th-5th calving cows while they're still with something and have the heifers to replace 'em

 

[BEJ]

You are not doing much if you don't get to 15% or higher. That is, if you want to really do linebreeding. Otherwise it is just sales hype and blue smoke. The real question is always "Why linebreed?" It takes superior animals with highly desirable traits to seek that route and your efforts are going to either expose their extreme good or hidden problems. There are excellent reasons to linebreed but few want to do that and risk the consequences.

I don't want to intentionally linebreed more or less more curious on it…I just want to get a more consistent set of cows and calves…getting away from going to the sales barn for replacements…. The cows I have now range from 1200-1600lbs and just trying to get everything to the middle ground around 1400 and clutter related so there aren't the few on the top end but more of everything even

 

[BEJ]

Doesn't the breed association have it ?
American Wagyu Assocation has a calculator.

I guess I don't know I'm still very new to the registered stuff but I'll dig into the Simmental website…thanks

 

[Travlr]

Just wondering what everyone's opinion on how much line breeding is to much…I know the old saying if it works it's line breeding and if it doesn't it's inbreeding but how do you figure out the coefficients? I have just 8 registered Simmental and they all have hooks shearforce in the pedigree 3-5 generations back and majority of the bulls I wanna try on AI all have him within 2-4 generations…I don't want to get the blood to thick but wouldn't mind getting my replacements I keep more consistent…side note I have no intention on keeping bulls back just the top end of the heifers to grow and build my herd…thanks!

Well you asked for "everyone's opinion", so I've give mine.

I've never done any line breeding and don't believe most people really know what they are doing if they do. I see line breeding as inbreeding, and see those doing it as taking unnecessary chances. Part of being a cattleman is doing my best to take care of my animals in the best ways I can. That means there are all kinds of risks I deal with every time I make any kind of decision, small risk and large, and I always choose least risk concerning the well being of the animals. I'm proud of the animals I've produced. They topped the market in every venue I've sold them in. People have sought me out to buy my animals because they were consistent, productive, and dependable. There are too many great genetic lines out there to worry about what I would get by breeding close relatives. Anything people get by line breeding can be had by wise selection without using related animals. I believe many of the issues we are seeing today in cattle are the result of line breeding in generations now long forgotten. I see line breeding as short term thinking with long term consequences.

 

[Davemk]

As was said above me 6% is not linebreeding, Anything above 15 and you have animals that are becoming closely related and the problems start showing up. Thus you need to cull hard.
I do not like the term linebreeding, I prefer "aggregation of genes" after all we are trying to keep the good and breed out the bad.

 

[Davemk]

Well you asked for "everyone's opinion", so I've give mine.

I've never done any line breeding and don't believe most people really know what they are doing if they do. I see line breeding as inbreeding, and see those doing it as taking unnecessary chances. Part of being a cattleman is doing my best to take care of my animals in the best ways I can. That means there are all kinds of risks I deal with every time I make any kind of decision, small risk and large, and I always choose least risk concerning the well being of the animals. I'm proud of the animals I've produced. They topped the market in every venue I've sold them in. People have sought me out to buy my animals because they were consistent, productive, and dependable. There are too many great genetic lines out there to worry about what I would get by breeding close relatives. Anything people get by line breeding can be had by wise selection without using related animals. I believe many of the issues we are seeing today in cattle are the result of line breeding in generations now long forgotten. I see line breeding as short term thinking with long term consequences.

I agree with most of your post. The last sentence not so much and here is why. The successful line breeders of the past allowed us to weed out genetics that just don't work and put genes that do work into one animal. It is easy to outcross those animals to regain heterosis.

 

[Son of Butch]

I just started a AI program last year I'm only running 70 head my thoughts to get more consistent set of cows and calves was to ai everything to one bull and keep my replacements out of what's born in the first 21 days and use the same bull two years in a row so I would end up with majority half sibs and some full sibs…

I like that plan, choose 1 well proven sire that you really like and spend a little more money on him if need be.

 

[BEJ]

I like that plan, choose 1 well proven sire that you really like and spend a little more money on him if need be.

That's the plan on choosing the bull is a proven bull that has a lot of prodigy to compare definitely not looking for the bull of the month

 

[Rmc]

I don't want to intentionally linebreed more or less more curious on it…I just want to get a more consistent set of cows and calves…getting away from going to the sales barn for replacements…. The cows I have now range from 1200-1600lbs and just trying to get everything to the middle ground around 1400 and clutter related so there aren't the few on the top end but more of everything even

Best way to produce consistency is by line breeding or inbreeding.
Line breeding and inbreeding are two totally different things. You can line breed and use outcross bulls if you want.

 

[Rmc]

You are not doing much if you don't get to 15% or higher. That is, if you want to really do linebreeding. Otherwise it is just sales hype and blue smoke.

So are you telling me the most studied and longest continuous documented line breeding is just smoke and mirrors and sales hype?
Because they are only around 10%.

 

[Ebenezer]

So are you telling me the most studied and longest continuous documented line breeding is just smoke and mirrors and sales hype?
Because they are only around 10%.

Yes.

 

[Lucky_P]

Too much math for me...but I couldn't get ENOUGH Shear Force influence in my cows, to suit me, back when we were using Simmental AI sires.
I'd use the bull(s) with no qualms about it.