LGD Discussion

[Farm Family]

I felt bad that I posted my LGD picture the other day and inadvertently caused the conversation of coyotes and donkeys to derail into a discussion about LGDs. I originally posted my LGD because it is what we use for coyote deterrence and it has made a difference. We considered a donkey and decided on the LGD.

One reason was the chickens. Another was yard protection, we were see more rural issues with people and finally our neighbour lost his donkey to a grizzly bear. Not that a grizzly couldn't do the same with an LGD but we have noticed they so far, knock on wood, avoid all the noise and fuss of a dog.

This is my very first thread and I sure hope I am doing this right…an experiment too.

So I will try to post about our LGD experiences here vs overwhelming other threads though I can't promise it won't happen again. I get excited to share this project. Probably because we've experienced a lot of naysayers. I know the whole LGD cattle thing has been met with reserve and trepidation and I am certainly learning myself but I feel it is a viable option. I thought a thread would provide conversation. There really is little study on LGDs and cattle. There was a blog about an LGD study in the Sierra Nevada but it seems to have sort of dwindled away. I was super curious and even reached out to the researcher but nothing came of it.

 

[BFE]

I have two Pyrenees. Good with everything except coyotes. They hate them with a passion, which is what they should do. The female has a range of around a half mile, the neutered male less, unless they follow us on horseback or ATV's. They think that's big fun.

 

[BFE]

Nice thick cows by the way, all these Canadian cattle seem to be super thick. Must be the weather.

 

[TexasRancher]

Wow...fattest cows I've ever seen...I thought I was looking at bulls. Wondering what your bulls look like...must be massive 3,200. lb-ers.

 

[Farm Family]

Nice thick cows by the way, all these Canadian cattle seem to be super thick. Must be the weather.

Thank you…mountain streams, cooler nights maybe? This was 2022 and agreed they wintered well. I was even a little surprised the shape they were in. This past spring they were thin…less feed available, lowered feed quality, weather…but they got through to June when they move onto summer pastures and in no time they were pretty conditioned. Goal is they come home fat cause home is where the real feed conversion starts. And this year feed is good quality but short supply. Similar, I am sure to most places...and then you rely on genetics.

 

[Farm Family]

Wow...fattest cows I've ever seen...I thought I was looking at bulls. Wondering what your bulls look like...must be massive 3,200. lb-ers.

I suppose if you compare them to longhorns. Teasing of course.

The cattle were in good condition in 2022 (picture taken)…wintered easier? This angle is a bit deceiving too. We are looking down on black cattle still sporting winter coats. We like thick cattle no doubt. It is cold up here and they need reserves.

Angus bulls are not heavy weights in my experience. My poor cows would not appreciate that. I will see about getting a picture to post. I tend to overlook the bulls when I am picturing…my cows steal my attention…too interested in the breeding outcomes and how they are doing.

 

[Farm Family]

I have two Pyrenees. Good with everything except coyotes. They hate them with a passion, which is what they should do. The female has a range of around a half mile, the neutered male less, unless they follow us on horseback or ATV's. They think that's big fun.

They seem to stay home then? A half mile range is acceptable on a farm. Are they bonded to cattle?

 

[Warren Allison]

I felt bad that I posted my LGD picture the other day and inadvertently caused the conversation of coyotes and donkeys to derail into a discussion about LGDs. I originally posted my LGD because it is what we use for coyote deterrence and it has made a difference. We considered a donkey and decided on the LGD.

One reason was the chickens. Another was yard protection, we were see more rural issues with people and finally our neighbour lost his donkey to a grizzly bear. Not that a grizzly couldn't do the same with an LGD but we have noticed they so far, knock on wood, avoid all the noise and fuss of a dog.

This is my very first thread and I sure hope I am doing this right…an experiment too.

So I will try to post about our LGD experiences here vs overwhelming other threads though I can't promise it won't happen again. I get excited to share this project. Probably because we've experienced a lot of naysayers. I know the whole LGD cattle thing has been met with reserve and trepidation and I am certainly learning myself but I feel it is a viable option. I thought a thread would provide conversation. There really is little study on LGDs and cattle. There was a blog about an LGD study in the Sierra Nevada but it seems to have sort of dwindled away. I was super curious and even reached out to the researcher but nothing came of it. View attachment 35043

Don't feel bad, Most threads on here tend to deteriorate into discussions of totally unrelated subjects. It will happen with your thread here too. In a page or two, someone will comment on that hay ring in the pic, and the next several pages will be about brands and types hay rings then, morph to being about unrolling round bales vs, using a rings, followed by a couple of pages on what kind of grass they grow for hay. Just watch.

 

[moses388]

LGD = livestock guardian dog
...for those who don't know

 

[Logan52]

I have had good LGDs and bad LGDs. The good ones are nigh indispensable when you have sheep or goats. They have never bonded with my cattle like they do the sheep and goats.
Sadie, a 16 year old Anatolian X Great Pyrenees who died last year was one of the good ones. Before she died she trained Caesar, a full stock neutered male Great Pyrenees. He only leaves the sheep to accompany my Border Collie on mid morning mole digging adventures but does not stay away long. He rarely ranges more than a quarter mile from the sheep.
They are impressive looking creatures that wow visitors with their mere presence and may deter some two legged as well as four legged potential predators. They hate coyotes around the sheep and raccoons in the sweet corn and attack them with a vengeance. The mere shadow of a buzzard passing over brings them into action and they try to keep them in the air and away. They really do not bother anything else.
The bad ones roam and are hard on chickens. Some even regard lambs as wooly chew toys while they are still in the puppy stage.
All in all, without a good LGD it would be difficult for me to operate as I do.

 

[Travlr]

I have had good LGDs and bad LGDs. The good ones are nigh indispensable when you have sheep or goats. They have never bonded with my cattle like they do the sheep and goats.
Sadie, a 16 year old Anatolian X Great Pyrenees who died last year was one of the good ones. Before she died she trained Caesar, a full stock neutered male Great Pyrenees. He only leaves the sheep to accompany my Border Collie on mid morning mole digging adventures but does not stay away long. He rarely ranges more than a quarter mile from the sheep.
They are impressive looking creatures that wow visitors with their mere presence and may deter some two legged as well as four legged potential predators. They hate coyotes around the sheep and raccoons in the sweet corn and attack them with a vengeance. The mere shadow of a buzzard passing over brings them into action and they try to keep them in the air and away. They really do not bother anything else.
The bad ones roam and are hard on chickens. Some even regard lambs as wooly chew toys while they are still in the puppy stage.
All in all, without a good LGD it would be difficult for me to operate as I do.

I just watched an interesting Nat Geo episode of Animals Up Close on Disney that was showing how they train LGDs in South America. They put the mother and pups in an enclosure with a sheep from early days, and when the pups are weaned the sheep is left in an enclosure next to them until the dog is something like six months old and ready to go out with adult dogs and the flock.

 

[BFE]

They seem to stay home then? A half mile range is acceptable on a farm. Are they bonded to cattle?

Not really. They mostly just lay around and look dead until nightfall. Then they're up roaming the perimeter raising Cain all night. They're really indifferent to the small dogs, chickens, horses, and cattle we have. They don't like foxes either, and they respect the Pyrenees boundaries well as the coyotes do.

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

In Oregon the wolf packs kill so many LGDs the government has a repayment plan for the ranchers.

 

[Travlr]

In Oregon the wolf packs kill so many LGDs the government has a repayment plan for the ranchers.

Sounds like a good reason to have both dogs and a good donkey.

 

[BFE]

Sounds like a good reason to have both dogs and a good donkey.

Open season sounds even better.

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

Wolves kill the donkeys too. This is what species covered for compensation for kills by protected wolves in the state of Oregon-"Livestock" means ratites, psittacines, horses, mules, jackasses, cattle, llamas, alpacas, sheep, goats "Working dog" means any animal of the species Canis familiaris used to aid in the herding or guarding of livestock..

These are usually packs of wolves. They become habituated to killing cattle because it's easy. LSG dogs are also killed. Its almost impossible to stop wolf attacks with strips of colored flags tied on fences, (fladdery noise makers, etc), All the things a rancher must do before 1 or 2 wolves are allowed to be removed by ODFW. Usually these packs just move on to another ranch in the area.

Recent livestock kills in Oregonhttps://dfw.state.or.us/Wolves/docs/dep_inv/2022/ODFW%20Depredation%20Investigation%20Report%20220809.pdf

Here is the rigamarole you must go through to get compensation for LSDG killed by wolves.

ORS 610.150 – Wolf predation loss compensation program

As used in this section, (a) “Livestock” means ratites, psittacines, horses, mules, jackasses, cattle, llamas, alpacas, sheep, goats, swine, bison, domesticated fowl…

oregon.public.law

Is it any wonder when collared wolves are found shot by the roadside or packs poisoned $50,000.00+ rewards are posted for the person responsible but no one ever turns them in because they are heros.

 

[Farm Family]

Don't feel bad, Most threads on here tend to deteriorate into discussions of totally unrelated subjects. It will happen with your thread here too. In a page or two, someone will comment on that hay ring in the pic, and the next several pages will be about brands and types hay rings then, morph to being about unrolling round bales vs, using a rings, followed by a couple of pages on what kind of grass they grow for hay. Just watch.

I thought of that as we moved to the fat cows. I also thought damn it…posted that picture not paying attention to cattle and conditions…thought to myself "someone is going to comment - fat cause she free choices them those are some spoiled pampered cattle".

We actually bust bales on winter pasture. Those girls are up there no matter the weather or snow depth…we will break a path but they usually have their zigzag to the water well packed…it takes quite a dump to leave them stranded, they truck through.

They only come down to calve. We bust for them down below for as long as the ground is frozen or fairly firm. When ground gets soft, rain comes, with very wet heavy spring snow we do use bale feeders so they don't trample and waste so much. Sometimes bale feeders are needed for a couple weeks if we can't send them up to dry ground ie. if we have seeded down (case in 2022). Ideally they go to the seasonal dugout first but we have watering challenges there cause we often are still too cold to drop the pump or we have ice still in the dugout. We have a seasonal creek they use too but really it does not run until the seasonal dugout is ready for its pump.

The winter pasture dugout is not an issue…on an "motion eye" pump kicks in, water climbs goodness 10ft? into a wide shallow bowl, "motion eye" after no movement detection drains back below frost lines (that 10ft.) Not perfect and like any winter watering system is cussed at and needs a heat gun, kettle, you know but man it is a beneficial tool and assists us immensely. What freezes is the overflow holes and they drop cud in and that can hang up on the draining mechanism which can then hang up some water. So after a cold snap that is taken off and cleaned for the next go round.

 

[Farm Family]

I have had good LGDs and bad LGDs. The good ones are nigh indispensable when you have sheep or goats. They have never bonded with my cattle like they do the sheep and goats.
Sadie, a 16 year old Anatolian X Great Pyrenees who died last year was one of the good ones. Before she died she trained Caesar, a full stock neutered male Great Pyrenees. He only leaves the sheep to accompany my Border Collie on mid morning mole digging adventures but does not stay away long. He rarely ranges more than a quarter mile from the sheep.
They are impressive looking creatures that wow visitors with their mere presence and may deter some two legged as well as four legged potential predators. They hate coyotes around the sheep and raccoons in the sweet corn and attack them with a vengeance. The mere shadow of a buzzard passing over brings them into action and they try to keep them in the air and away. They really do not bother anything else.
The bad ones roam and are hard on chickens. Some even regard lambs as wooly chew toys while they are still in the puppy stage.
All in all, without a good LGD it would be difficult for me to operate as I do.

I hear you Logan…we are blessed with our LGD. She is well bonded to cattle. As I have said in other threads she came from working stock, stayed with her parents until she was 12 weeks and her birth charges were cattle and chickens just like we have. I am a believer in that bond instinct…for us must be cattle and chickens. I truly feel from experience this born bond instinct is difficult to train - so for us cattle is a must.

Cattle is a hard one for LGDs to learn…size for one, they are intimidating to pups. Our pup came knowing cattle so truly was easy fit. Her first calving season she soften her eyes and ears and the head shaking dissipated. The herd watched her run off a coyote. She returned to her herd and I thought bad idea those girls are hot and ready to kill. Nope, they licked her, she licked them and herd settled very quickly when they saw her return to them. So unlike with sheep or goats LGDs have a trickier time being bossy or pushy with cattle…mama will take a pound of flesh and the calves are lbs for lbs close to her.

Yes…defends sky too. Chased an eagle away with her relentless nipping, jumping and barking…he felt easier places than this and moved on.

People…she is not fond of strangers and even those who visit often…rather be with the cows or chickens…an asset we feel. The fuel man - she takes her milk bone and sits for him but if he thinks he can linger or go for a pet she gives a throaty growl. He laughs and says oh right can't bribe you. He pets the lab instead.

 

[Farm Family]

I just watched an interesting Nat Geo episode of Animals Up Close on Disney that was showing how they train LGDs in South America. They put the mother and pups in an enclosure with a sheep from early days, and when the pups are weaned the sheep is left in an enclosure next to them until the dog is something like six months old and ready to go out with adult dogs and the flock.

I have seen similar studies…really cool. They are a great tool in the right training, circumstances.

 

[Farm Family]

Not really. They mostly just lay around and look dead until nightfall. Then they're up roaming the perimeter raising Cain all night. They're really indifferent to the small dogs, chickens, horses, and cattle we have. They don't like foxes either, and they respect the Pyrenees boundaries well as the coyotes do.

Yes we know when our girl has had a hard night too. She is sleepy and less interested in following the quad etc.