Lets Talk My Bull Again

[inyati13]

My bull, AAA 17061926 may carry a mutation for AM (arthrogryposis multiplex) and CA (contractual arachnodactyly). What are the risks? No much, I say. Why? First by the rule of just odds not empirical knowledge, he probably does not carry it. Ok, but if he does. If he does, he would be heterozygous for it or he would display the disease. From my college genetics, let's say he is CAca. He would then have to sire a calf by a cow that is CAca. The odds are one in four that the calf would exhibit CA. Here are the potential genotypes of an off-spring. CACA, homozygous-positive (calf would have CA); CAca, heterozygous carrier; CAca, heterozygous carrier; and caca, homozygous-negative. There is a disease in my family, mom is heterozygous (carrier), dad is heterozygous (carrier). There are five of us, here is how it fell out (the whole family has had blood work done). Henry, homozygous-positive, he got mom's bad one and dad's bad one, has the condition and is treated; me, homozygous-negative, I was the lucky one who got mom's good gene and dad's good gene; Ed, homozygous-positive, same as Henry; Sharon, heterozygous-carrier; and baby brother, Rob, same as Sharon.

Now, what decisions do I make? I am going to keep the bull through the spring breeding period and sell him in late fall when he will weigh close to 2000 pounds. I should get my money back or close to it. The risk is manageble. I will let you know come late spring if any of his calves come up with CA or AM.

There is a factor that would invalidate the above and increase the risk. I did not research AM and CA. There are some diseases where the heterozygous carrier geneotype exhibits a milder form of the genetic malady. If someone who knows more about these diseases has that information, I would be grateful for that information

 

[inyati13]

I am rushing here but found this in a google search. At a glance, it seems to support the rudiments of my statement above. One correction it is the recessive gene that causes the disease. It would be the caca geneotype that would exhibit the disease.
"How does CA spread between herds?
CA is a recessive genetic defect. This means the disease is only seen in a calf that has inherited two copies of the CA mutation, one from each parent. Both parents of any CA affected calf must therefore necessarily be ‘carriers’ of the mutation. Calves that inherit only one copy of the mutation appear normal but are nonetheless genetic ‘carriers’ of the mutation and transmit the mutation to 50% of their own progeny.
When CA carriers are mated to other CA carriers, only 25% of the resulting progeny will be affected by the CA disease. Half of the resulting progeny will be apparently normal but actually carriers of the mutation (i.e. the same status as their parents) with the remaining 25% appearing normal and being non-carriers."

Just breifly read about AM. Works along the same genetic mechanics. It requires a carrier x carrier and there is the same 25%/50%/25% fallout. In this disease if a calf has it, it is dead!

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Oh don't worry about it. No big deal. Those tiny little genetic defects have only ruined a couple of hundred small angus breeders across the country. Any way you would likely only have a few dead calvel a year.

 

[inyati13]

Red Bull, good laugh. Your wit amuses me.

 

[robert]

Understanding the inheritance of genetics is not the same as the ethics of selling genetics. These defects have been a matter of public record for at least 4 years now and the onus is on the supplier to insure that known defects are not being passed on and propagated which it appears to not be the case here. Test the bull for nothing else but your own piece of mind, perhaps your supplier will share the cost?

 

[dun]

If you're all that concerned about it why not get the tests done? I'm just spitballing but surely they have DNA tests.

 

[inyati13]

dun, you know they have test for it. robert, your thought is a good one. But I have other issues with this bull that will send him to slaughter. I think my point is made as good as I can make it. To repeat the point I made, the risk for my operation is acceptable. The genetics of this particular bull will not affect the long range genetics of my herd or anyone elses. His calves will go as feeders, I would not keep any of his off-spring as breeders. It would be interesting to know his geneotype on these defects but it really will not change my decision.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

If the search is working. Do a search on these defects. Three or four years ago they was a hot topic around here.

 

[dun]

dun, you know they have test for it.

I figured they has a test but since I have absolutly nothing to do with black Angus and since our Red Angus are free from any defects I didn't know for sure since I haven't followed anything about them.

 

[inyati13]

Understanding the inheritance of genetics is not the same as the ethics of selling genetics. These defects have been a matter of public record for at least 4 years now and the onus is on the supplier to insure that known defects are not being passed on and propagated which it appears to not be the case here. Test the bull for nothing else but your own piece of mind, perhaps your supplier will share the cost?

I wonder about your statement that this supplier is contributing to the propagation of these defects. I am guessing that an ethical supplier should test each bull to determine if in fact that bull is a carrier to tighten up the stipulation that one or more of his ancestors carried the resessive gene for the disease. Can you flesh out what you think he should do?

 

[inyati13]

dun, you know they have test for it.

I figured they has a test but since I have absolutly nothing to do with black Angus and since our Red Angus are free from any defects I didn't know for sure since I haven't followed anything about them.

The science has nothing about breed restrictions to it. Mapping an organisms genetics is decades old now. The procedures are the same for all genetic material. There are more genetic molecular biologist than there are cattlemen!!!

 

[inyati13]

dun, you got me. Ha Ha. Now I see, Red Angus have no defects. If they performed a genetic work up on George Washington, they would have found defects, come on.

 

[inyati13]

I will check in tonight. I got cows to visit. I am having fun.

 

[dun]

dun, you got me. Ha Ha. Now I see, Red Angus have no defects. If they performed a genetic work up on George Washington, they would have found defects, come on.

I didn't say that the Red Angus breed doesn;t have defects. Our herd doesn't have any defects that are known about. I had a long conversation with the head of marketing for the association. He maintanes that there is no reason to not sell crriers (even proved carriers) and I feel just the opposite

 

[bse]

You can have the tests done for about 40 dollars for am and nh. Theres so much 1680 blood out there in commercial herds the best way to eliminate the problem is to use known clean bulls. As a seedstock producer all your animals should be clean when sold and a little blame should be placed on the buyer for not checking papers before buying the animal, but i guess the dollar makes producers do things that are a little less than reputable

 

[3waycross]

The sale i sell in sells Gelbvieh, Balancers, and Angus. The Balancers and the Angus are required to prove either by pedigree or by test that they are defect free.

Anyone not doing this is irresponsible and or just plain dishonest! You should get the bull tested if he is positive the breeder needs to make it right with you...

 

[inyati13]

dun, you got me. Ha Ha. Now I see, Red Angus have no defects. If they performed a genetic work up on George Washington, they would have found defects, come on.

I didn't say that the Red Angus breed doesn;t have defects. Our herd doesn't have any defects that are known about. I had a long conversation with the head of marketing for the association. He maintanes that there is no reason to not sell crriers (even proved carriers) and I feel just the opposite

OK, got that. It was important that you added, "that are known about." If cattle are being sold for human consumption, it does not matter that a molecule is out of place in their DNA structure. Can we all agree on that? No defect in the genetic material is going to adversely affect humans who ingest the meat and break it down for adsorption by the digestive process. That is fundamental to this discussion. It follows by pure logic that selling a genetic defective into the feeder market will have no adverse effect on the practice of raising cattle.

 

[inyati13]

You can have the tests done for about 40 dollars for am and nh. Theres so much 1680 blood out there in commercial herds the best way to eliminate the problem is to use known clean bulls. As a seedstock producer all your animals should be clean when sold and a little blame should be placed on the buyer for not checking papers before buying the animal, but i guess the dollar makes producers do things that are a little less than reputable

bse, the goal of pursuing the best practices reasonable to produce the best genetic stock possible is fundamental. But in my opinion, responses to this thread are not justified in the extent that they are criticizing the breeder of this bull. The bull is registered with the AAA in complete openess. Look how responders have appropriately viewed his pedigree. The bulls registration states that this animal has one or more ancestors known to carry a mutation that can result in calves with the genetic defects of AM and CA. It is fair to debate whether the breeder should have been proactive in testing this animal to confirm that this bull does not carry the defects. The breeder did not do that. I now own the bull and have no intention on going back to the breeder on this bull. I have put forth my case on why I am willing to live with the circumstances and in fact, am happy to do so. Why, because I have pursued the science of biology long enough to know that there is low risk for me on this issue. I have studied genetics and know our cattle and us included carry millions of genetic defects, known or not known. It is the primary mechanism that organisms evolve. In fact, some genetic defects might be beneficial. But I am getting to far afield, I have made my decision. I would test my bull if I had nothing else to do. In fact, I was talking to the folks at Rocking P Livestock this morning and they think it can be done using the follicles in a hair sample.

 

[chippie]

Yes, the breeder should have had him tested and since he was not, you should have him tested.
Unless you send your heifers directly to a feedlot or butcher them yourself, you have no guarantee that they will not be bred.

It really ticks me off when breeders will not test and will knowingly sell breeding stock that may have a genetic defect. It goes for horses too.

However he is your bull and you can do what you want.

 

[bse]

you are right in human consumption it affects nothing but to assume it doesnt effect you because your calves are going to the feedlot is a gamble in my opinion if you know all your cows are clean maybe not so much, but if you have a curly calf or a water head calf how much have you lost in those calves when there is a simple fix. test him and yes you can just pull hairs from the tail to do that. And just me but if he was a carrier me and the breeder would have to talk about it even if he is a terminal bull.(unless he told me up front) i think the moral of this is, before you purchase these bulls get on the association site of whichever breed and look them up if theres a problem its there in black and white.