Lets Talk My Bull Again

[inyati13]

you are right in human consumption it affects nothing but to assume it doesnt effect you because your calves are going to the feedlot is a gamble in my opinion if you know all your cows are clean maybe not so much, but if you have a curly calf or a water head calf how much have you lost in those calves when there is a simple fix. test him and yes you can just pull hairs from the tail to do that. And just me but if he was a carrier me and the breeder would have to talk about it even if he is a terminal bull.(unless he told me up front) i think the moral of this is, before you purchase these bulls get on the association site of whichever breed and look them up if theres a problem its there in black and white.

bse, I was not informed while shopping for this bull that his ancestor or ancestors carried the subject defective genes. To debate the principle of whether breeders should test their bulls when there is a possibility of it being in the ancestral linage is not my point. You can make it your point if you want to or John Doe's point but if you read the post that began this thread, my point is not about what principles or ethics breeders should adhere to. My point was and is about what affects me in this specific circumstance. I went through the risk factors based on elementary genetic facts. I concluded that I was willing to assume some risk to get through the breeding season and to meet my specific needs. I am not opposed to breeders doing a "better job". I agree with you that losing calves or having poorly performing calves is to be avoided. You will read above that I have stated several times that I plan to sell this bull this summer in the open ring where he will most likely go to slaughter. I am not as upset at the man who sold me this bull as most of you are. I have already gone to a couple of breeders and started shopping for a bull. I was at Rocking P Livestock today. Google it. They have a National reputation. I will get another bull and mu objective is to provide myself the best possible odds of having healthy, high performance calves.

 

[chippie]

I have stated several times that I plan to sell this bull this summer in the open ring where he will most likely go to slaughter.

When you unload him at the auction, specifically tell them that he is to go to slaughter. Otherwise you may be passing the buck onto an unknowing buyer.

 

[inyati13]

chippie, I sincerely do not mean to offend but is the world that much different between here and Texas. If I told Mike, who I use to haul my cattle to the Flemingburg stockyard, that he is to tell them that this bull must go to slaughter when he is sold, he would tell me to ride along and find who I need to say that to and tell them myself. Along the way there he would offer me his best homespun counsel on how to deal with the blank stare I was going to get from whoever it was that I was going to tell this to! Let me introduce Mike. Mike does everything. He hauls cattle, sells country hams which he says two doctors tried to buy the recipe from him because he has the only salt cured hams in the world that you don't cure with salt, he is an auctioneer, he has his own herd, he AIs cattle, doctors cattle better than any vet, and is an all around good fellar. He stops by my farm once a month to tell me how I should be operating. He can just look at a cow and tell you when she will have a calf. Now, chippie, I know there are lots of rednecks here. Maybe more than there are in Texas, but I promise you I have been here long enough to know I am not going to put myself through the embarassment of your suggestion even though I know you have honorable and honest intentions.

 

[chippie]

Why don't you haul them yourself? Do you own a trailer?

 

[inyati13]

I do not and the circumstances would still be the same once I got there. Think about this. The markets here are open. Anyone can bid. When they own the animal who is going to tell them what to do with it.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Life is to short folks, the old boy don't care a whit for the industry he has invited hisself into to care about it. He will pass the bull on anyway he can and not care about the end results. He thinks our concerns are amusing.

 

[inyati13]

I am amused. And life is short.

 

[robert]

The breeder would have known that this animal was a potential carrier of at least CA and AM at the time you bought the bull. That you choose to disregard this information is entirely up to you, however as a breeder of Angus cattle I believe that disclosure of and testing of potential carriers along with elimination of those defects from the registered herd represents a fundamental role of the purebred sector. Everyone is free to do as they wish and make choices based on the information provided to them, my opinion is that failure to disclose is unethical, period.

 

[chippie]

I do not and the circumstances would still be the same once I got there. Think about this. The markets here are open. Anyone can bid. When they own the animal who is going to tell them what to do with it.

I doubt that. I've hauled many cattle to the auction and you can tell them what to do with them. If it is a cow, you can have her tested and/or palpated if you like. You have to ask for it and you pay for the service.

When they own the animal who is going to tell them what to do with it.

You confused me. What do you mean by that? You still own the animal until it crosses the scales and then it belongs to the buyer. The sale barn does not own it. The only way the sale barn would "own" it would be if it were injured due to negligence on the sale barn's part.

I can honestly tell you that a trailer can be one of the most important pieces of equipment that you will ever own. Someday you will be in a bind and an animal's life may depend on whether or not you can haul it to the vet.

YMMV

ETA: I reread your post again and I am guessing that you are still new to cattle and haven't been to many sales. Yes, animals can be designated for slaughter. Namely because there are some cattle that can only be slaughtered.

 

[inyati13]

I do not and the circumstances would still be the same once I got there. Think about this. The markets here are open. Anyone can bid. When they own the animal who is going to tell them what to do with it.

I doubt that. I've hauled many cattle to the auction and you can tell them what to do with them. If it is a cow, you can have her tested and/or palpated if you like. You have to ask for it and you pay for the service.

When they own the animal who is going to tell them what to do with it.

You confused me. What do you mean by that? You still own the animal until it crosses the scales and then it belongs to the buyer. The sale barn does not own it. The only way the sale barn would "own" it would be if it were injured due to negligence on the sale barn's part.

I can honestly tell you that a trailer can be one of the most important pieces of equipment that you will ever own. Someday you will be in a bind and an animal's life may depend on whether or not you can haul it to the vet.

YMMV

ETA: I reread your post again and I am guessing that you are still new to cattle and haven't been to many sales. Yes, animals can be designated for slaughter. Namely because there are some cattle that can only be slaughtered.

chippie, thanks for the advice on a trailer. The stockyards, what they call them here, is only the venue in which cattle are marketed. But one can walk into a stocksale, get a number, sit in the stands and bid/buy an animal. What they do with it after they leave is what? Are you saying they are regulated by some agency of the state/county/etc.? I have a thick skin and admit I am having some fun here if you have not figured that out, so I do not mind learning as a result. Tell me how this works when an animal is designated for slaughter. Are bidders restricted from bidding unless they sign an affidavit on the end use or are they bonded in some fasion to enforce the end use? Tell me so I will know how that works.

 

[fitz]

I do not and the circumstances would still be the same once I got there. Think about this. The markets here are open. Anyone can bid. When they own the animal who is going to tell them what to do with it.

I know a lot of folks on here have a problem with sale barns but that is where most of my stock is sold. With that said, I too have to be responsible. If I show up with a questionable animal I tell them it goes to the kill pen. That's how it is sold.
I won't buy a breeding bull through a sale barn. Only virgin bulls from a reputable breeder.

fitz

 

[inyati13]

The breeder would have known that this animal was a potential carrier of at least CA and AM at the time you bought the bull. That you choose to disregard this information is entirely up to you, however as a breeder of Angus cattle I believe that disclosure of and testing of potential carriers along with elimination of those defects from the registered herd represents a fundamental role of the purebred sector. Everyone is free to do as they wish and make choices based on the information provided to them, my opinion is that failure to disclose is unethical, period.

robert, I can find no fault here. But I spent 33 years in enforcement and while ethics are noble, the man did nothing illegal. There are responses in this thread that do amuse me as someone accused me of above. Tell me, have you looked at this entire thread and not been amused at how some of the responses make you wonder if some of these people are living in a fantasy world.

 

[inyati13]

I do not and the circumstances would still be the same once I got there. Think about this. The markets here are open. Anyone can bid. When they own the animal who is going to tell them what to do with it.

I know a lot of folks on here have a problem with sale barns but that is where most of my stock is sold. With that said, I too have to be responsible. If I show up with a questionable animal I tell them it goes to the kill pen. That's how it is sold.
I won't buy a breeding bull through a sale barn. Only virgin bulls from a reputable breeder.

fitz

fitz, how is that regulated? It goes to the kill pen, does that restrict me from buying it, taking it home and using it to breed my cows?

 

[inyati13]

I do not and the circumstances would still be the same once I got there. Think about this. The markets here are open. Anyone can bid. When they own the animal who is going to tell them what to do with it.

I know a lot of folks on here have a problem with sale barns but that is where most of my stock is sold. With that said, I too have to be responsible. If I show up with a questionable animal I tell them it goes to the kill pen. That's how it is sold.
I won't buy a breeding bull through a sale barn. Only virgin bulls from a reputable breeder.

fitz

fitz, do they really have to be virgin? :banana:

 

[fitz]

They are designated as slaughter cattle. The buyers understand that. I guess if someone was just Hello bent on running the price up and buying one it could happen. But at that point I feel like I've done my part as has the auctioneer.

fitz

 

[fitz]

I do not and the circumstances would still be the same once I got there. Think about this. The markets here are open. Anyone can bid. When they own the animal who is going to tell them what to do with it.

I know a lot of folks on here have a problem with sale barns but that is where most of my stock is sold. With that said, I too have to be responsible. If I show up with a questionable animal I tell them it goes to the kill pen. That's how it is sold.
I won't buy a breeding bull through a sale barn. Only virgin bulls from a reputable breeder.

fitz

fitz, do they really have to be virgin? :banana:

Yessir. But that's just me.

 

[inyati13]

They are designated as slaughter cattle. The buyers understand that. I guess if someone was just Hello bent on running the price up and buying one it could happen. But at that point I feel like I've done my part as has the auctioneer.

fitz

Agreed.

 

[chippie]

robert, I can find no fault here. But I spent 33 years in enforcement and while ethics are noble, the man did nothing illegal. There are responses in this thread that do amuse me as someone accused me of above. Tell me, have you looked at this entire thread and not been amused at how some of the responses make you wonder if some of these people are living in a fantasy world.

He may not have done anything illegal, but he was not ethical. Ethics play a major part in animal husbandry and the livestock industry.
So happy to know that you don't have a problem passing a potential genetic problem onto someone else.

You might want to look up "Quality Counts" http://agrilife.org/qualitycounts/

It is a program that all major Texas Stock Shows and most fairs require Youth market animal exhibitors to complete.

With this opportunity comes a responsibility for each exhibitor to learn and demonstrate the highest standards, both in personal character and in the feeding and care of their animals. “Quality Counts” is designed to teach young people the importance of displaying good character in carrying out livestock projects, and in every aspect of their lives. “Quality Counts” helps them learn the importance of using proper livestock management practices so that food quality and safety are preserved.

This curriculum, targeted to 4-H and FFA members, teaches young people the importance of good character and ethical behavior in caring for and exhibiting animals. Many youth livestock projects enter the food supply, so quality assurance is the responsibility of these young people and the adults who work with them.

 

[bse]

inyati maybe you have me confused i understand your selling the bull but apparently you are still using him at what consequences i dont know. if a seedstock producer sells a bull like this it is wrong and thats my opinion thats all, the guy who sold him may just be a farmer down the road and not know any better either i dont know. Looks like your changing breeds on your bull at least get the reg# of bull of choice from Chan and punch it in on the ASA website and make sure he has a green trait trac.

 

[inyati13]

inyati maybe you have me confused i understand your selling the bull but apparently you are still using him at what consequences i dont know. if a seedstock producer sells a bull like this it is wrong and thats my opinion thats all, the guy who sold him may just be a farmer down the road and not know any better either i dont know. Looks like your changing breeds on your bull at least get the reg# of bull of choice from Chan and punch it in on the ASA website and make sure he has a green trait trac.

Keith and I discussed the genetics defect issue yesterday while I was buying a couple heifers. I will not repeat on here what he said only that he is far more experienced with the reality of the cattle business than is demonstrated by some of the responses above. I did look at some bulls. You don't seem confused. I have the bull, plan to keep him and use him until next summer. I have been clear about that. I respect your opinion and agree with it to some extent with the stipulation that there are circumstances where it is appropriate to sell and use a bull like mine. The following is not directed at bse.

This thread resulted from a previous thread in which I ask for help in understanding the CE data on my bull. I made the mistake of responding to a request for his registration number. From there this thread has become an amusement to me. At least Red Bull Breeder got that right. I was raised on a farm and worked over most of the western US in federal civil service. I came home and started a cattle operation about 3 years ago. I have a MS degree in Biology and Geology. My cattle are treated well and they show it. I am not an experienced cattle producer but I make up for that in the time and effort I put into it. I also think for myself and will freely swim against the current at times. I say all this to provide a basis for this statement, if this board is to better serve folks, provide responses that address their specific subject. I know folks are going to provide off topic comments, that is the nature of boards and there is value in suggestions, etc. But this genetic ethics deal became the theme of what started as a CE question and some responses on that were pointless.