Landed

[Logan52]

For many years I have maintained a small flock of blackface club type sheep and a small herd of mama cows on a ridge and hollow farm just south of the famed Bluegrass region of Kentucky.
Occasionally I get a wild hair and purchase a high price addition to the herd or flock, thinking it will greatly improve its quality and performance. More often I bring in a bargain basement addition from the stockyards hoping to make some money.
My point is that neither of these strategies tend to work out in the long run. They and their prodigy seldom make a long term contribution to the herd or flock. It is the cows and ewes that were born here and I can trace their line back for generations that remain.
These "landed" animals know every cowpath through the woods and every fenceline. When they see me with a walking stick they instinctively know where they are supposed to go next. They have proven their adaptability to my forage resources and parasite populations. They know the cool spots in summer and sheltered locations in winter.

Has anyone else ever noticed how rarely top performance type cattle actually improve things if you do not change your operation to meet their needs?

 

[50/50Farms]

When I was younger, we bought some high dollar bulls a time or two. It gives you a starting place for building something, but you can't reform an entire herd off of it. Selection will always be the biggest driver of generational herd success.

 

[Travlr]

For many years I have maintained a small flock of blackface club type sheep and a small herd of mama cows on a ridge and hollow farm just south of the famed Bluegrass region of Kentucky.
Occasionally I get a wild hair and purchase a high price addition to the herd or flock, thinking it will greatly improve its quality and performance. More often I bring in a bargain basement addition from the stockyards hoping to make some money.
My point is that neither of these strategies tend to work out in the long run. They and their prodigy seldom make a long term contribution to the herd or flock. It is the cows and ewes that were born here and I can trace their line back for generations that remain.
These "landed" animals know every cowpath through the woods and every fenceline. When they see me with a walking stick they instinctively know where they are supposed to go next. They have proven their adaptability to my forage resources and parasite populations. They know the cool spots in summer and sheltered locations in winter.

Has anyone else ever noticed how rarely top performance type cattle actually improve things if you do not change your operation to meet their needs?

LOL... I get what you're saying and congratulate you on your "landed" animals and how they do well on what you have.

I had to notice your last sentence, "Has anyone else ever noticed how rarely top performance type cattle actually improve things.... ", preceded by, "More often I bring in a bargain basement addition... ".

I wonder how that figures in to the results you get?

It's really not as much about the money you are spending as much as the results you are getting, IMO. I see people spending lots of money on EPDs without thinking about what kind of calves they will be selling. There are a lot of EPD bulls that cost a lot and throw calves that look like crap and sell badly. The buyers aren't looking at your EPDs or how much your bull cost. They are looking at the calves they are bidding on at the time they are bidding. If the bull you use doesn't improve the looks of the calves going through the sale ring then it doesn't matter what the bull cost.

Sorry, that's probably more than I should have said but the soap box beckoned and I got on it.

 

[Brute 23]

That's why I am such a big fan of retaining heifers.

I just had this conversation with a guy I help. He was saying how some Angus cross calves were outdoing his registered pure bloods. I laughed and said it was not surprising. All this Brahman, Angus, blah blah stuff is only nice and all because it has to start some where. My favorite cows are still those commercial cross breeds that have made the cut genertionally. They earned their keep, their momma did, grandma did, and on and on. There was no marketing or hot ticket at the time deciding if they would make the cut.

 

[Logan52]

I probably overstated my position. I try and buy the best bulls I can afford and a good bull does make a difference. However, over the years very few purchased females have made a long lasting impression on the herd and tend to get culled early. I keep going back to the old maternal lines that have been here a while to keep heifers from.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Logan52> I appreciate your input on the topic of heifer retention. You stated you try to buy the best bulls you can afford which I believe most
of us do. My question for you is, Do you look for specific attributes in a bull that will take your cows in the direction you want them to go?
As I have stated previously on CT I started several years ago a program of only retaining heifers born in the 1st cycle of the calving period.
Any cow that does not calve in the 1st cycle is subject to cull provided there is a qualified replacement. You may have already discovered when
using retained heifers the bull used will have an even greater physical influence in the makeup of the herd. For example I changed from selling
at weaning to 8 months and went to selling yearlings. As a result of this I look for bulls with a moderate to low birth weight, a low weaning
weight EPD (90% or less) and a plus 100 % year weight EPD. I am probably bucking a head wind here but I absolutely do not want a high
milk EPD in a bull. As a result I am getting lighter birth weights, calves that begin foraging sooner on their own and calves that virtually explode
with growth in the last 90 days.. From my observation cows with a lower milk production do not require the energy input that a high
milk producer does to breed back in the time frame to get a calf on a regular yearly cycle. To be candid I wish I had started doing this and
rotational grazing 50 years ago. Time is such a leveler. Do what works for you LVR

 

[chaded]

Logan52> I appreciate your input on the topic of heifer retention. You stated you try to buy the best bulls you can afford which I believe most
of us do. My question for you is, Do you look for specific attributes in a bull that will take your cows in the direction you want them to go?
As I have stated previously on CT I started several years ago a program of only retaining heifers born in the 1st cycle of the calving period.
Any cow that does not calve in the 1st cycle is subject to cull provided there is a qualified replacement. You may have already discovered when
using retained heifers the bull used will have an even greater physical influence in the makeup of the herd. For example I changed from selling
at weaning to 8 months and went to selling yearlings. As a result of this I look for bulls with a moderate to low birth weight, a low weaning
weight EPD (90% or less) and a plus 100 % year weight EPD. I am probably bucking a head wind here but I absolutely do not want a high
milk EPD in a bull. As a result I am getting lighter birth weights, calves that begin foraging sooner on their own and calves that virtually explode
with growth in the last 90 days.. From my observation cows with a lower milk production do not require the energy input that a high
milk producer does to breed back in the time frame to get a calf on a regular yearly cycle. To be candid I wish I had started doing this and
rotational grazing 50 years ago. Time is such a leveler. Do what works for you LVR

When you say, "a low weaning weight EPD (90% or less) and a plus 100 % year weight EPD." are you talking about percentiles or +90 and +100 (pounds)?

 

[Lee VanRoss]

When you say, "a low weaning weight EPD (90% or less) and a plus 100 % year weight EPD." are you talking about percentiles or +90 and +100 (pounds)?

I might have been saying one and thinking the other. Point is, less on birth weight and weaning and more on year weight. It;s a multi year
multi year process that can take a lot of record keeping if you expect it to work.

 

[chaded]

I might have been saying one and thinking the other. Point is, less on birth weight and weaning and more on year weight. It;s a multi year
multi year process that can take a lot of record keeping if you expect it to work.

I kind of figure that was what you were saying. I was interested in what you meant though because I had a bull I was trying to compare to your numbers. He has a birthweight epd of -1.9, weaning weight +61, and yearling weight +106.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

The +61 will eventually bite you in the butt as it will probably result in larger heifers. Think pounds per acre not per head.

 

[alacowman1]

For many years I have maintained a small flock of blackface club type sheep and a small herd of mama cows on a ridge and hollow farm just south of the famed Bluegrass region of Kentucky.
Occasionally I get a wild hair and purchase a high price addition to the herd or flock, thinking it will greatly improve its quality and performance. More often I bring in a bargain basement addition from the stockyards hoping to make some money.
My point is that neither of these strategies tend to work out in the long run. They and their prodigy seldom make a long term contribution to the herd or flock. It is the cows and ewes that were born here and I can trace their line back for generations that remain.
These "landed" animals know every cowpath through the woods and every fenceline. When they see me with a walking stick they instinctively know where they are supposed to go next. They have proven their adaptability to my forage resources and parasite populations. They know the cool spots in summer and sheltered locations in winter.

Has anyone else ever noticed how rarely top performance type cattle actually improve things if you do not change your operation to meet their needs?

you can get top performers that are more suited for terminal use.i envision what I want in a replacements, and select a momma maker bull for it..or what I want in my terminal calves to be , with a beef maker..those top performers can be costly trying to keep in condition.. easy keepers are the ticket on the pasture..

 

[Logan52]

Thank you all for your interest and questions. I may have waded in a little over my head on this one as I am far from being as knowledgeable as some of you on cattle breeding.
Look, I started with no money and no family help. My Dad came down every day to my farm but he knew next to nothing about farming. After many years and my finally taking an off farm job, I got the house and farm paid for. My best move was finding a good wife.
Like most, I started down a few wrong roads in breeding cattle. With a base of some Red Poll cows and some Holstein-Hereford cows I settled into keeping my own heifers. I tried to breed the first timers to the best Angus calving ease bull I could find. I would then get a more terminal type bull. Even went with a Charolais I got from a friend. Excellent yellow cows but they got too big for the way I manage and the dilution gene was a headache where black tops the market. My last two bulls have been Sim-Angus and I like where I am going.
I have farmed a dollar short and a day behind most of my life. Only in retirement with grown kids and Medicare have I had the luxury of making more choices. I still hold to having cattle adapted to your farm as being the way to go, learned from long experience.

 

[Warren Allison]

Think pounds per acre not per head.

I like that. Good advice, Lee. This is exactly why the Kudzu- Corriente thing has worked so well for us.

 

[Travlr]

Thank you all for your interest and questions. I may have waded in a little over my head on this one as I am far from being as knowledgeable as some of you on cattle breeding.
Look, I started with no money and no family help. My Dad came down every day to my farm but he knew next to nothing about farming. After many years and my finally taking an off farm job, I got the house and farm paid for. My best move was finding a good wife.
Like most, I started down a few wrong roads in breeding cattle. With a base of some Red Poll cows and some Holstein-Hereford cows I settled into keeping my own heifers. I tried to breed the first timers to the best Angus calving ease bull I could find. I would then get a more terminal type bull. Even went with a Charolais I got from a friend. Excellent yellow cows but they got too big for the way I manage and the dilution gene was a headache where black tops the market. My last two bulls have been Sim-Angus and I like where I am going.
I have farmed a dollar short and a day behind most of my life. Only in retirement with grown kids and Medicare have I had the luxury of making more choices. I still hold to having cattle adapted to your farm as being the way to go, learned from long experience.

I see you having a great attitude and being willing to think and make changes. That's a bonus in my view. No one grows into the cattle business immediately.

The best thing I can tell you that I've learned is to produce the product the buyers are paying the most for. That means looking at your calves and being critical of THEM. The calves need to be what the buyers are willing to pay for. That means using bulls that compliment your cows, and having cows that are a consistent type so whatever bull you use on them produce consistent type calves. With cows it's more about the body type than the color (with some exceptions), because you can make your calves the right color with the right bull. If you watch the sales and notice what sells highest, it is big lots of healthy, easy keeping, fleshy, consistent calves from a single source. A hundred healthy, easy keeping, fleshy, identical 500 pound steers from one seller will always beat the average of ten lots of differing numbers of steers ranging in weight and type.

 

[BFE]

Logan, you're in the fescue belt like me. I've found some big names take well to it, some not, so I source my bulls from producers who are here in the belt too, and don't feed the devil out of them. That means no silage fed bulls, or bulls fed a finishing ration of ground feed. I'm like you, started up cattle after the family being out for years, so basically from scratch. I've learned a lot, but still got a long ways to go.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I started with my Papaws top 10. Being sentimental and all, I tried to keep the lineage.Started seeing they wouldn't fit my management direction and have almost culled them all out.

Had bought a couple from a family friend who bred Sim and Angus and turned into beef. He wwas retiring and put his favorite animals on me. These are the majority of my herd now and their offspring.

Plan to finish culling my Papaws this year, all but one line sadly. They just don't work for me evidently. No milk is my big issue with them. Good bit of Limo blood in them.

Agreed though on keeping your own replacements if your management is any bit different than most. Neighbors can be good sources too.

 

[Warren Allison]

Agreed though on keeping your own replacements if your management is any bit different than most. Neighbors can be good sources too.

I agree with this, too. Obviously, this works out for a lot of members on here...probably the majority. But, let me play Devil's Advocate for a minute. Some have posted that using the bloodlines of top performers, won't work as good with their operation as raising their own. and I can see where this would be true. Would an option be to change or adjust your operation to allow you to use the best bloodlines? What is it about your situation, that makes the top bloodlines not work out for you, as they do for the majority of the people that do use them, and thus made them the top producing bloodlines? ? I don't know the answer, and don't even want to speculate...just asking.

I also don't want people to think, especially those new to cattle , that the only way to get quality brood cows is to raise their own. Everyday, at sale barns across the nation, there are cows and heifers that are as good or better than the best any of you are raising of your own, and can be bought for less money than it take to raise them. If someone had to sell off their herd of replacements, would entering a sale barn make them lesser quality for another to buy? Not every cow or heifer sold at auction is junk. nor does being in a sale barn automatically make them junk. Yes, I acknowledge you have to know what you are doing, and have to spend a lot of time at the sale barns to learn what you are doing, so hold off on the smart-ass jabs and insults.

There are producers that specialize in raising replacement heifers. @Travlr , wasn't this a big part of your operation? I have 2 clients that custom breed Brahma cross replacement heifers for people, and there are many operations like theirs or @Travlr 's. Some sell private treaty, some sell at special replacement sales, and some hold their own auctions. Some do all 3. None of these could stay in business long, if they raised inferior cattle.

 

[Brute 23]

I agree with this, too. Obviously, this works out for a lot of members on here...probably the majority. But, let me play Devil's Advocate for a minute. Some have posted that using the bloodlines of top performers, won't work as good with their operation as raising their own. and I can see where this would be true. Would an option be to change or adjust your operation to allow you to use the best bloodlines? What is it about your situation, that makes the top bloodlines not work out for you, as they do for the majority of the people that do use them, and thus made them the top producing bloodlines? ? I don't know the answer, and don't even want to speculate...just asking.

I also don't want people to think, especially those new to cattle , that the only way to get quality brood cows is to raise their own. Everyday, at sale barns across the nation, there are cows and heifers that are as good or better than the best any of you are raising of your own, and can be bought for less money than it take to raise them. If someone had to sell off their herd of replacements, would entering a sale barn make them lesser quality for another to buy? Not every cow or heifer sold at auction is junk. nor does being in a sale barn automatically make them junk. Yes, I acknowledge you have to know what you are doing, and have to spend a lot of time at the sale barns to learn what you are doing, so hold off on the smart-ass jabs and insults.

There are producers that specialize in raising replacement heifers. @Travlr , wasn't this a big part of your operation? I have 2 clients that custom breed Brahma cross replacement heifers for people, and there are many operations like theirs or @Travlr 's. Some sell private treaty, some sell at special replacement sales, and some hold their own auctions. Some do all 3. None of these could stay in business long, if they raised inferior cattle.

Absolutely not. It seeems like a lot of breeders are getting farther and farther from what the common cow/calf person needs.

I know I bring this up over and over but when we went out looking for bulls from a top breeder in our area neither bull lasted over 60 days. This was a very public ambassador for Angus cattle in our area.

We went back to a true cattleman, raising animals for working people, and got proven bulls. They didn't have the most popular names in their pedigree but they continue to produce calves that ring the bell.

Then to round it out, you take the person I mentioned early buying registered angus genetics and already admitting they aren't producing.

When you experience all that side by side... it's easy to say... I'm not conforming.

 

[Travlr]

I agree with this, too. Obviously, this works out for a lot of members on here...probably the majority. But, let me play Devil's Advocate for a minute. Some have posted that using the bloodlines of top performers, won't work as good with their operation as raising their own. and I can see where this would be true. Would an option be to change or adjust your operation to allow you to use the best bloodlines? What is it about your situation, that makes the top bloodlines not work out for you, as they do for the majority of the people that do use them, and thus made them the top producing bloodlines? ? I don't know the answer, and don't even want to speculate...just asking.

I also don't want people to think, especially those new to cattle , that the only way to get quality brood cows is to raise their own. Everyday, at sale barns across the nation, there are cows and heifers that are as good or better than the best any of you are raising of your own, and can be bought for less money than it take to raise them. If someone had to sell off their herd of replacements, would entering a sale barn make them lesser quality for another to buy? Not every cow or heifer sold at auction is junk. nor does being in a sale barn automatically make them junk. Yes, I acknowledge you have to know what you are doing, and have to spend a lot of time at the sale barns to learn what you are doing, so hold off on the smart-ass jabs and insults.

There are producers that specialize in raising replacement heifers. @Travlr , wasn't this a big part of your operation? I have 2 clients that custom breed Brahma cross replacement heifers for people, and there are many operations like theirs or @Travlr 's. Some sell private treaty, some sell at special replacement sales, and some hold their own auctions. Some do all 3. None of these could stay in business long, if they raised inferior cattle.

This, "Not every cow or heifer sold at auction is junk, nor does being in a sale barn automatically make them junk.", is so obviously true that I'm amazed how people will not realize it.

I made commercial replacement heifers from other people's discarded, culled, older cows. The very reason they were the best in the area was because they come out of experienced, long lived, fertile, productive cows. I'd buy anything broken/smooth mouth in good flesh and of a certain type and due to calve, preferring those sold in large lots from someone I knew to have acceptable animals (often privately) and when they weaned a 600 pound calf or better, on grass and hay, I'd breed them for heifers. A lot of times I would get two or three more calves from them and the heifers that were made were acclimated to local conditions.

And your, "you have to know what you are doing, and have to spend a lot of time at the sale barns to learn what you are doing..." is essential. Not only are you learning about what to buy to improve your own herd... but you are also learning about what sells and why. It's amazing to me how many people buy cows and bulls... without considering what the product is that they will be selling.

I see a lot of people go into a sale barn with the idea that they will make the most money from getting the best deal... "best deal" meaning buying the cheapest piece of crap they can find and hoping it will breed and give them a calf. But for only a few pennies more per pound they are passing up on animals that they would be proud to own and would produce more value. They go cheap instead of working on "type" and consistency.

 

[Travlr]

It seeems like a lot of breeders are getting farther and farther from what the common cow/calf person needs.

They (bulls) didn't have the most popular names in their pedigree but they continue to produce calves that ring the bell.

Then to round it out, you take the person I mentioned early buying registered angus genetics and already admitting they aren't producing.

When you experience all that side by side... it's easy to say... I'm not conforming.

I couldn't agree more. But really, in any industry, it isn't the average person that sees this kind of thing.