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Brute 23 said:
Absolutely not. It seeems like a lot of breeders are getting farther and farther from what the common cow/calf person needs.

I know I bring this up over and over but when we went out looking for bulls from a top breeder in our area neither bull lasted over 60 days. This was a very public ambassador for Angus cattle in our area.

We went back to a true cattleman, raising animals for working people, and got proven bulls. They didn't have the most popular names in their pedigree but they continue to produce calves that ring the bell.

Then to round it out, you take the person I mentioned early buying registered angus genetics and already admitting they aren't producing.

When you experience all that side by side... it's easy to say... I'm not conforming.
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Thanks, Brute. This is the kind of answers I hoped to get. More questions, though. How does one get to be a top breeder if they aren't "true cattle men" ? I don't buy in to the idea that being "blue collar" makes anyone superior in any way, to successful "white collar" business men. I know many CEOs and entrepeneurs that can weld, turn wrenches, build houses and run equipment as good or better than anyone. But very few of the people that work for them could run their businesses. Most top breeder s that I know, are more cattleman than any run-of-the-mill commercial cattle ranchers that I have run ax cross. That is why they are top breeders. And obviously, a bull that is at the top of the breed, , is just that...top of the breed, because of what they produce. So what is it about your operation, that made those bulls not work out? Or made that other person's "top angus genetics" not work out?":
 
Warren Allison said:
How does one get to be a top breeder if they aren't "true cattle men" ?
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Money...
Warren Allison said:
I don't buy in to the idea that being "blue collar" makes anyone superior in any way, to successful "white collar" business men. I know many CEOs and entrepeneurs that can weld, turn wrenches, build houses and run equipment as good or better than anyone. But very few of the people that work for them could run their businesses.
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True... but not always or even most of the time.
Warren Allison said:
Most top breeder s that I know, are more cattleman than any run-of-the-mill commercial cattle ranchers that I have run ax cross.
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Not my experience...
Warren Allison said:
That is why they are top breeders.
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Again... money. Often perception of competence. Like a guy that pulls up in a brand new, expensive truck to bid a job. They work the shows and hire people to promote their product... which is often more show than go.
Warren Allison said:
And obviously, a bull that is at the top of the breed, , is just that...top of the breed, because of what they produce.
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Again, top of the breed is about perception and not always performance in the field.
Warren Allison said:
So what is it about your operation, that made those bulls not work out? Or made that other person's "top angus genetics" not work out?":
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Well really... we're talking Angus here... right?
 
Travlr said:
This, "Not every cow or heifer sold at auction is junk, nor does being in a sale barn automatically make them junk.", is so obviously true that I'm amazed how people will not realize it.

I made commercial replacement heifers from other people's discarded, culled, older cows. The very reason they were the best in the area was because they come out of experienced, long lived, fertile, productive cows. I'd buy anything broken/smooth mouth in good flesh and of a certain type and due to calve, preferring those sold in large lots from someone I knew to have acceptable animals (often privately) and when they weaned a 600 pound calf or better, on grass and hay, I'd breed them for heifers. A lot of times I would get two or three more calves from them and the heifers that were made were acclimated to local conditions.

And your, "you have to know what you are doing, and have to spend a lot of time at the sale barns to learn what you are doing..." is essential. Not only are you learning about what to buy to improve your own herd... but you are also learning about what sells and why. It's amazing to me how many people buy cows and bulls... without considering what the product is that they will be selling.

I see a lot of people go into a sale barn with the idea that they will make the most money from getting the best deal... "best deal" meaning buying the cheapest piece of crap they can find and hoping it will breed and give them a calf. But for only a few pennies more per pound they are passing up on animals that they would be proud to own and would produce more value. They go cheap instead of working on "type" and consistency.
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Wow! I agree 100% with what you said! Reckon hell is about to freeze over:?!!! :) Starting as a teen, every cow herd I ever had I bought through the sale barns. and most any beginner that asked me to help them get started, I bought their cows through the sales. Most of the time, when a newbie decides to buy private treaty from " an experienced, established, expert (the three E's) cattle breeder, they ended up getting "skinned". Paid way more than the cattle are worth. Those 80 Brahmas I bought here while back for Wayne, at $2250 per head, came from a Florida breeder, and they are all fine cows with 80 f1 Braford calves by their sides. A few might not bring $2k at a sale, and a lot of them would bring $2500 or more. The next 50 I am going to get from some Brahma replacement special auctions the next few weeks. These will be every bit as good, maybe even beer, than the 80 formk privbaate treaty. I wil be abe to pick and choose the ones I want, and I will most likely get them for the same or better price.

You are so right...anyone in the cattle business, ought to go to as many sales as he can, as often as he can, and PAY ATTENTION. Anytime I am here at my desk I am watching several sales from all over the country, on DVA auctions.
 
Very interesting post, the op kind of mirrors my experiences as well.
I've said before, right, wrong or indifferent, I believe that the current trends in cattle breeding are a lot of the problem. Unfortunately, most are not really breeding cattle they multiplying somebody else's cattle genetics. In a sense that the way it has always been but to a point. Now with AI being so popular and having a new bull of the month it's hard to focus on strength and weakness of that which we have yet to know. Then there is the fiasco of EPD's, which aren't even used like they are supposed to be. It's for a comparison, but it's turned into a breed by numbers game. If an animal looks good on paper and has the right prefix before it's name it has to be good, right?
To the comment about good cattlemen, there are absolutely good cattlemen and cattlewomen in both registered and commercial outfits. There really is no superiority in the registered world, it just looks more glamorous from the outside.
There is a whole range of experiences in the registered cattle world, all the way from longtime established breeders, that know the ropes and have the utmost integrity, then there's the Johnny come lately with seemingly deep pockets that makes a lot of noise for a short time and fizzles out, and everything in between.
There's a lot of tricks to the trade in the purebred registered world that, create an illusion. Sometimes what is is and sometimes it is not.
Some outfits push and supplement their cattle in ways that most other registered and commercial outfits cannot. Suffice to say most animals can perform decent to great under the best of conditions. Then under less but still adequate conditions the same performance, across the board is not usually replicated.
Something that has also happened is the emergence of trying to produce do it all cattle. Calving ease, maternal, high growth, high carcass quality, sone of those traits are antagonistic to each other. Obviously, daughters of high growth bulls or extreme carcass bulls are not likely going to be proficient or efficient in the breeding pasture doing what a cow is supposed to do. Those EPD's are on paper and an estimate, they don't always translate to the same performance.
 
Warren Allison said:
Thanks, Brute. This is the kind of answers I hoped to get. More questions, though. How does one get to be a top breeder if they aren't "true cattle men" ? I don't buy in to the idea that being "blue collar" makes anyone superior in any way, to successful "white collar" business men. I know many CEOs and entrepeneurs that can weld, turn wrenches, build houses and run equipment as good or better than anyone. But very few of the people that work for them could run their businesses. Most top breeder s that I know, are more cattleman than any run-of-the-mill commercial cattle ranchers that I have run ax cross. That is why they are top breeders. And obviously, a bull that is at the top of the breed, , is just that...top of the breed, because of what they produce. So what is it about your operation, that made those bulls not work out? Or made that other person's "top angus genetics" not work out?":
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It is a very political game which does not always render the best cattleman at the top. Get on the inside of those deal and you will see it. That is another reason I rarely go to breed auctions. There is a big difference between being the most popular and the best.
 
Travlr said:
Money...

True... but not always or even most of the time.

Not my experience...

Again... money. Often perception of competence. Like a guy that pulls up in a brand new, expensive truck to bid a job. They work the shows and hire people to promote their product... which is often more show than go.

Again, top of the breed is about perception and not always performance in the field.

Well really... we're talking Angus here... right?
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Well, I hear this all the time in the horse business. Maybe the Grand Champion isn't the best horse in the show or competition, but it is there with the top 10-20-30 others, that ALL of them are the top percent of competitors in the breed. And in a field of 10, the other 9 always accuse the owner of the Grand Champion of paying off the judges! I suspect the same is true with show cattle. But, Warren Buffet and Bill Gates combined, don't have enough money to get a mule to the KY Derby, or a Walking Hose to win the NCHA futurity. So, I was wondering WHY the top bulls in the breed, didn't work out for people. What is it they are doing wrong or different, that makes this happen? If I have a colt by HighBrow Hickory that can't compete in cutting or reining, it s NOT the bloodlines. It is that I ain't trainer or rider enough to get him to the winner's circle.

I would say yes, it IS most of the time. Lee Iacoca could have learned how to run any spot on the production line, and run it as well or better than any Chrysler employee, but there ain't no union auto worker on the line that could run Chrysler Corporation.

And my experience is that MOST ARE. Someone successful in business that decides to be successful in cattle does what they did to make their business successful. and that is to research and study and apply what they learn.

Yes, marketing and promotion can get a top 10th percentile horse, or bull, to number 1. Marketing is the most important part of any successful business, but no amount by the biggest and best of the Madison avenue firms, will get a Craig's list bull there. Even with paying off judges and a million dollar marketing program, no bull is going to get to the top, and stay there, unless they produce superior cattle. So, if it doesn't work out for someone, then there is something in what or how they do that is different than the countless other people that made this bull the top in the breed. Is it because they just didn't pick the right one? I mean, the WGC TWH stallion at the Celebration each year would be a piss-poor choice if you were looking to breed champion reining horses. It doesn't make the TWH not worth a damn.

I see people saying all the time that this or that bull, or this or that blood line of cattle, is not good. That they got to the top by the "good ole boy system" and/or payoffs. I regard the people who say this kinda like I do those who say all sale barn cattle are ****, and their home-grown cattle are better.
 
Brute 23 said:
It is a very political game which does not always render the best cattleman at the top. Get on the inside of those deal and you will see it. That is another reason I rarely go to breed auctions. There is a big difference between being the most popular and the best.
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I see it all of the time in horses. Especially in halter and pleasure horses, which are judged. The Sr halter World Grand Champion at Congress each year might not be the best of the field of say 20 horses, but he is at least the 20th best in the world that year . Money and politics may have gotten him tied above better horses, according to the other 19 competitors. But if he was a sway back, parrot mouthed, ewe neck plug,, he never would have made it to Congress to start with. If you breed him and the resulting offspring is a pile of crap, then 99.99% of the time it is on you. The way you trained, the nutrition and health care of the foal, and most likely, the mare you used. Those are 4 reasons why the WGC halter stallion, even without a bought title. might not produce another WGC. So I am wondering what are the factors on a producer's end, that caused a top bull to not work out.
 
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Another issue I see is the overemphasis of epds. I think it will also show on the Angus more because they are pushing the limits for new and more and have the most growth in the breed. It's like buying the first year car after a body or motor change. There are going to be kinks that have to be worked out. The question is, can you afford to be their test dummy.
 
Warren Allison said:
Well, I hear this all the time in the horse business. Maybe the Grand Champion isn't the best horse in the show or competition, but it is there with the top 10-20-30 others, that ALL of them are the top percent of competitors in the breed. And in a field of 10, the other 9 always accuse the owner of the Grand Champion of paying off the judges! I suspect the same is true with show cattle. But, Warren Buffet and Bill Gates combined, don't have enough money to get a mule to the KY Derby, or a Walking Hose to win the NCHA futurity. So, I was wondering WHY the top bulls in the breed, didn't work out for people. What is it they are doing wrong or different, that makes this happen? If I have a colt by HighBrow Hickory that can't compete in cutting or reining, it s NOT the bloodlines. It is that I ain't trainer or rider enough to get him to the winner's circle.

I would say yes, it IS most of the time. Lee Iacoca could have learned how to run any spot on the production line, and run it as well or better than any Chrysler employee, but there ain't no union auto worker on the line that could run Chrysler Corporation.

And my experience is that MOST ARE. Someone successful in business that decides to be successful in cattle does what they did to make their business successful. and that is to research and study and apply what they learn.

Yes, marketing and promotion can get a top 10th percentile horse, or bull, to number 1. Marketing is the most important part of any successful business, but no amount by the biggest and best of the Madison avenue firms, will get a Craig's list bull there. Even with paying off judges and a million dollar marketing program, no bull is going to get to the top, and stay there, unless they produce superior cattle. So, if it doesn't work out for someone, then there is something in what or how they do that is different than the countless other people that made this bull the top in the breed. Is it because they just didn't pick the right one? I mean, the WGC TWH stallion at the Celebration each year would be a piss-poor choice if you were looking to breed champion reining horses. It doesn't make the TWH not worth a damn.

I see people saying all the time that this or that bull, or this or that blood line of cattle, is not good. That they got to the top by the "good ole boy system" and/or payoffs. I regard the people who say this kinda like I do those who say all sale barn cattle are ****, and their home-grown cattle are better.
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Well I was very careful to NOT say ALL people or ALL cattle... so let's not act as though I did.

Show cattle do not make good producing cattle for a reason, most of the time. The judges aren't looking at what those animals are producing down the line, but are only looking at them in the ring. I don't blame them. I've been turned by a pretty girl with a nice smile occasionally too.

It's our job to look beyond the show ring though. Beyond the ribbons and fluffy tails. We need to look at udders and feet and the MEAT package underneath the artificially valued hair color... while recognizing the realities in a market influenced by gimmicks and trends. It's our responsibility to read the market and the buyers, now and a year or even two in the future.

And yeah, I know some wealthy people that earned their way... but I also know money is more easily accumulated with a foundation of money than it is with knowledge, talent, or expertise. I have no problem with people using their money to accumulate more. It's up to us to be discerning enough to avoid the less valuable products they sell from the greater value.

And with most (not all) high powered breeders... I can go out in the wilds of the common man and eventually find livestock that will perform as well or better than what they would sell at ridiculously high prices. We are talking about a matter of degrees. I may not get a mule to win the Kentucky Derby, but I might be able to get a Sea Biscuit to rise up out of the weeds.
 
Ok, so is show earnings or placing what makes a bull number 1 or a top dollar bull, in the association? If so, then the problems are in the judging. Not training judges to look at udders and feet and the MEAT package. Breed standards should be the criteria used in judging, shouldn't it? What breed do you see that have show champions for high dollar bulls, that are NOT representative of the breed standards? This is some good info.
 
Most people can't justify feeding their herd like the big boys. Environment is another factor. Move some of those warm season grass cows that wean 1000 pound bull calves to fescue country. There would be a high percentage that would melt like a popsicle in July. Then put some out in the southwest, where it takes a 40 or more to support a cow.
 
A local man had a home raised bull that he sent to Louisville in the 90's, I believe he got reserve in class. I believe Red Pepper was the bull. They are out there, just like Travlr said, but how many fly under the radar?
 
Warren Allison said:
Ok, so is show earnings or placing what makes a bull number 1 or a top dollar bull, in the association? If so, then the problems are in the judging. Not training judges to look at udders and feet and the MEAT package. Breed standards should be the criteria used in judging, shouldn't it? What breed do you see that have show champions for high dollar bulls, that are NOT representative of the breed standards? This is some good info.
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It sounds like you are more inclined to look for holes than to think about what's being said. Which doesn't surprise me. A guy that sells Corriente as a good idea for trouble free foundation stock, and black as the only criteria for value. I see crossbred Corriente with black hides as a scam that would only be considered by someone that can't produce calves of better value that make money. Something a shill for CAB would propose.

I don't give a damn what the breed standards are. I care what works in the field. What sells and for how much to the people writing the checks. Some people prioritize selling their product to people attracted by glitter and they don't sell to me. They might seem to have a better product because they ask more for it and they have people buying. But it's my calves that grade on the rail and do it consistently... and I don't need over priced bulls to do it.
 
Warren Allison said:
Ok, so is show earnings or placing what makes a bull number 1 or a top dollar bull, in the association? If so, then the problems are in the judging. Not training judges to look at udders and feet and the MEAT package. Breed standards should be the criteria used in judging, shouldn't it? What breed do you see that have show champions for high dollar bulls, that are NOT representative of the breed standards? This is some good info.
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Some breeds place more emphasis on the show ring than others. Any of the shows are subjective to the latest fads there are some breeders that follow those and some that don't. Those that don't are usually more performance oriented, but a lot of breeders blur the lines because showing is recognized as good advertisement. It becomes real problematic when breeders breed specifically for show ring cattle with little to no regard for real world productivity,
Breed standards are subjective, there is a lot of difference between Angus and Herefords of the fifties, vs 80's vs present day.
You could easily make the argument that neither Angus or Hereford of today in the US look like the original version other than basic color and with Hereford purists you could open up a major can of worms on that subject alone.
I can tell you from experience that the popular show bulls in the 80's-90's in the Charolais breed were largely disastrous. Too much frame, slab sided, the females we're too big and hard keeping often with no milk especially true with some of the big name champion animals.
Similar situation with the carcass and high production bulls in Angus for example. They may work great for calves in feedlot or on the rail, but the daughters don't always work out in the pasture, yet a lot bulls are marketed as do it all curve bender bulls, which is simply not the case.
 
BFE said:
Most people can't justify feeding their herd like the big boys. Environment is another factor. Move some of those warm season grass cows that wean 1000 pound bull calves to fescue country. There would be a high percentage that would melt like a popsicle in July. Then put some out in the southwest, where it takes a 40 or more to support a cow.
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Now that makes sense. If a bull doesn't perform for someone like they expect, or like the bull is promoted to produce, it may be that the way you feed your cows, and the enviroment/conditions of your operation could be a contributing factor. Would it be accurate to say that a reason the flavor-of-the-month bull you used didn't produce like you wanted, could be that you simply picked the wrong bull for your operation, rather than the bull not being any good?:

Anyone else out there with enough sense to carry on a conversation, without going all Democrat on some one.. resorting to personal attacks and insults, because they can't read and comprehend... please answer this question: What criteria is used..say in Herefords ( insert the name of any breed here) in determining what bull is the top bull in the association? Or one of the top?: Is it show records? Number of show points earned or amount of dollars won? Or is it based on performance records of offspring? Weaning weights, etc? Carcass scores of offspring? Number of offspring that wins shows? What makes semen sell for the most dollars? Purely ERPDs? What is it that makes a bull a top seller? If it is show wins, then yes I can see where not all top bulls would work out for all situations. If it is based on performance records and offspring performance records. etc., then I think it is the case of picking the wrong one. If a bull got to the top via "money and politics", then that will collapse for the owners in a breeding season or two. Anyone have anything to add or expand on what BEE said?
 
Allenw said:
The best animals in any breed are the one's that work in your conditions. Trophies, high dollar bids, glossy pictures, and being in a semen catalog don't mean squat if the offspring don't work for you.
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Regrading bulls, especially the top most sought after in the breeds: Is it trophies, high dollar bids, and glossy pictures that got them in the semen catalogs to start with"? Or is it any kind of off-spring performance records considered?
 
Ky hills said:
Some breeds place more emphasis on the show ring than others. Any of the shows are subjective to the latest fads there are some breeders that follow those and some that don't. Those that don't are usually more performance oriented, but a lot of breeders blur the lines because showing is recognized as good advertisement. It becomes real problematic when breeders breed specifically for show ring cattle with little to no regard for real world productivity,
Breed standards are subjective, there is a lot of difference between Angus and Herefords of the fifties, vs 80's vs present day.
You could easily make the argument that neither Angus or Hereford of today in the US look like the original version other than basic color and with Hereford purists you could open up a major can of worms on that subject alone.
I can tell you from experience that the popular show bulls in the 80's-90's in the Charolais breed were largely disastrous. Too much frame, slab sided, the females we're too big and hard keeping often with no milk especially true with some of the big name champion animals.
Similar situation with the carcass and high production bulls in Angus for example. They may work great for calves in feedlot or on the rail, but the daughters don't always work out in the pasture, yet a lot bulls are marketed as do it all curve bender bulls, which is simply not the case.
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Finally! The kind of information I was looking for. Thanks, KY.
 
Brute 23 said:
Absolutely not. It seeems like a lot of breeders are getting farther and farther from what the common cow/calf person needs.

I know I bring this up over and over but when we went out looking for bulls from a top breeder in our area neither bull lasted over 60 days. This was a very public ambassador for Angus cattle in our area.

We went back to a true cattleman, raising animals for working people, and got proven bulls. They didn't have the most popular names in their pedigree but they continue to produce calves that ring the bell.

Then to round it out, you take the person I mentioned early buying registered angus genetics and already admitting they aren't producing.

When you experience all that side by side... it's easy to say... I'm not conforming.
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I've got a gray/chocolate simangus bull I'm keeping intact. Hope to breed with him this Fall. Gonna be asking a lot of a young bull. He's good blood. Sire was short legged and slab sided.
 

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