Keeping Replacements, and not Breed specific.

[highgrit]

Just wondering what kind of protocols y'all use. I'm guilty on keeping the one's that grow out the best. And then I use the dame to make the final decisions. I've never worried about having moderate size cattle. So I never used that a tool for culling. I'm just wondering how many of y'all cull your biggest calves trying to achieve a moderate size cow or bull? Around here culling for size is not going to happen. It seems like everyone likes the bigger the better line of thought. But I'm not selling anymore bulls their a pain in the neck, and to much liability.

 

[gizmom]

highgrit

Some of the criteria we use for heifer retention are:

1. Heifer is calved early in the calving season, this is for a couple of reasons one it is going to make the heifer more mature when the time comes to breed her, the other is if the dam calves early then we have to feel it indicates she is very maternal and we want to keep daughters out of those highly maternal mamma cows.

2. Weaning Ratio, we are believers in measuring the productivity of the herd. Taking weaning weights and knowing where a heifer ratios within the herd is a great way to determine weather or not to retain that heifer. When you get that measurement and your comparing animals within your own that have been managed the same way, the data will tell the tale for you. I have a spread sheet that I use at weaning the formula gives me the ADG, measuring our herd has been without a doubt the most important tool we have used to improved.

3. Genetics

gizmom

 

[highgrit]

Mrs.Gizmom, maternal is a good quality to breed to. But isn't using weaning ratio and ADG as a measuring tool, the same as culling on size? I'm a bigger the better type of person, as I think most folks on cattle today are.

 

[gizmom]

Highgrit

I see what your saying but when I talk about measuring it is to know which cow is doing the best job. I am not a bigger is better kind of breeder, I am a breeder that wants a cow that works in your environment kind of person. I have found those big old cows don't always wean the biggest calf in most cases it takes a whole lot more input to get the same weaning weights. Bottom line I want to keep the ones that are going to make me money I can make money keeping the more moderate cow that weans off a good calf. We weigh our cows at weaning the same as we weigh the calves so when I say the big cows don't wean any heavier a calf than the more moderate ones I have the actual weights to back that up. Again our herd has reached the point that the calves are pretty well balanced as far as size so we don't have huge variances from top to bottom, but we reached this point by measuring.

gizmom

 

[bmoore87]

We pick replacements in relation to size to try and keep a more moderate framed cow herd. Not so much wether they are the biggest in the group at weaning but compared to others their age and their mothers frame size. Main things we look at though are how her mom raises a calf and how shes put together.

We use size mainly since we limit feed and have noticed a lot of the larger cows don't hold up as well or need moved into a group with more feed. Also have seen some studies showing that moderate cows tend to raise a larger percentage of their body weight than heavier cows. We cross to continental breed bulls for frame size and growth in the calves.

 

[Herefords.US]

Mrs.Gizmom, maternal is a good quality to breed to. But isn't using weaning ratio and ADG as a measuring tool, the same as culling on size? I'm a bigger the better type of person, as I think most folks on cattle today are.

Keep selecting for growth in your replacement heifers and you will end up with a HUGE bunch of mature cows.

 

[JWBrahman]

HG this is one of those threads that needs a commercial board. Commercial guys are thinking more about getting a calf up to weight, off momma, and off our limited pastures ASAP for as cheap as possible.

George, Gyr cattle grow slower than anything but the mature size is probably one of the largest. Ask Glenn to show you some cow/calf photos I sent him. Some of those moderate cows will take almost 8 month to get a calf up to 650.

 

[highgrit]

I wish I was more advanced and knowledgeable about cattle. Because I have very few of my large cows left in our herd. Most because they can't hold condition, but foot and hoof problems have also been a issue.
Mrs.Gizmom and some of the other top line breeders help the commercial cattlemen more than we know. I'm sure buying decent quality commercial bulls is the reason where still growing. I would never keep one of my bulls as my herd bull, there's no consistency about them. I've been really surprised at how different bulls grow out, when using the same sire.
But from what I've read on Cattle today it seems most of us small time cattlemen, pick and choose because of the size of the calf. It's definitely not the best way to do things. Thanks

 

[highgrit]

HG this is one of those threads that needs a commercial board. Commercial guys are thinking more about getting a calf up to weight, off momma, and off our limited pastures ASAP for as cheap as possible.

George, Gyr cattle grow slower than anything but the mature size is probably one of the largest. Ask Glenn to show you some cow/calf photos I sent him. Some of those moderate cows will take almost 8 month to get a calf up to 650.

How much of this based on good fertilized pastures? I'm a big believer in fertilizer, my neighbors use very little and their calves are 50-75 pounds lighter at weaning. A 650lb month old calf is big around these parts. I'm shooting for 2 1/2 pounds of ADG.

 

[JWBrahman]

We must be reading different posts, central themes often repeated:
Matching your herd to your environment
Fertility
Docility
Efficiency
Quality of final product
Cost to develop replacement heifers ( don't get CB started )
Longevity

Never read a single post advocating selection solely on growth. Different years present different challenges. Stocking rates are never the same from year to year on our place.

 

[AllForage]

Growth is a terminal trait, not maternal in my mind.

 

[Rafter S]

I use a number of factors. I tend to keep the older heifers because, as someone else mentioned, their dams tend to be more fertile, and I think that's the most important trait. I'd rather have an average calf every 12 months than a really good one every 16. After that I look at appearance. I like a deep bodied calf with good bone. I don't usually need to cull on temperament, because my cows are all pretty calm, but on the rare occasion that I get a nervous calf she gets a quick trip to town.

 

[dun]

We must be reading different posts, central themes often repeated:
Matching your herd to your environment
Fertility
Docility
Efficiency
Quality of final product
Cost to develop replacement heifers ( don't get CB started )
Longevity

Never read a single post advocating selection solely on growth. Different years present different challenges. Stocking rates are never the same from year to year on our place.

Those are about the same as we use with the excpetion of cost to develop.
We have a couple of extras thrown in.
If a heifer really starts to blossum and look markably better when on our 45 day weaning ration she goes to the feedlot. If she needs supplementation to exeptional she won;t work for us since we don;t feed grain other then at weaning.
If she falls apart post 45 day weaning when she's turned back out with the bred cow herd she'll go to the feedlot.
As a yealring if her pelvic is less then 160 she goes to the feedlot.
If she doesn;t settle with a maximum of 2 AI breedings she goes to the feedlot. Some times we don;t know about this part untell preg check time in the fall since we turn them out with the bull after 2 AI cycles. If she is slow to start coming into heat she may only get 1 cycle and some may just get turned in with the bull without being AIed at all. That;s one of those play it by ear deals. If she falls outside of our 60 day calving cycle she goes to the salebarn either as a bred heifer or feedlot material. Truth be told, unless she is in the 45 day calving window she'll usually go to the salebarn as a bred heifer or feedlot candidate.
Those are our basic criteria wether she;s registered or commercial. We don;t sell replacment heifers as replacements unless they fit into our criteria. If she isn;t of the quality that we would keep she isn;t good enough to sell for other then the feedlot. If she is sold as a feedlot candidate and the buyer decides to breed her then it's all on the buyer.
If she was shown as a yealring, we'll let them slide a bit on the calving window deal. We have had a couple that were shown and didn;t settle to AI while on the road. When they did calve they bred within a heat cycle of calving and have ended up being among the earliest to calve in subsequent years. Others haven't done it and end up being sold as bred 2nd calvers.
It's hard to make really hard and fast rules since there are alwasy variables, some of which can;t be forseen.
Mature size is rarely an issue we've slected for moderate size for so long that they all fall into the same FS category. Same deal goes for fertility.
It's been a long time since we sold any heifers via the salebarn.
Man did that endup longwinded! Sorry bout that.

 

[bigbull338]

i sell the top end show heifer calves.then i look at the heifers that are left.of those i keep the 1s with new bloodlines.then i keep 1 or 2 of the bloodline im using.then i cull the bottom heifers.

 

[John SD]

Growth is a terminal trait, not maternal in my mind.

:nod: IMO, there are 3 traits to keep in mind when selecting replacements.

1. Maternal
2. Maternal
3. Maternal



Seriously, if you like the mama cow, keep her daughters With few exceptions, the apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree :idea:

My ideal cow has a good disposition, good fertility, good conformation with proper structure, good udder, feet, and legs, and carries herself well. Quietly goes about her business calving on time every year and raising the calf all on her own with no assistance.

Not an extremely large cow nor too small. In my estimation, that is around 1200lbs in moderate condition, neither thin nor extremely fat.

Just a few random thoughts in no particular order :2cents:

 

[VCC]

Do you take the sire into consideration, heifers BW, or femininity?

If the sire is the terminal type do you want to keep the heifers?
You don’t want to use a bull that had a 117 pound BW, do you want to keep a heifer that did?
I early on I was told that a cow should look the part, not like a steer or bull. The bigger meaty heifers can look impressive, the just don’t always make the best mommas.

 

[fenceman]

Seriously, if you like the mama cow, keep her daughters With few exceptions, the apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree/quote]

That pretty much it. If I like the cow. I'll try her daughter s. I like for her to raise a perfect calf. But I've got plenty that just raise a decent calf. But they do it on time. By their selves. They look after their calf. And they don't cause trouble. Never kept one based on genetics. Like that idea about a commercial board.

 

[cow pollinater]

I try for a moderate replacement. for me they have to be real standouts on growth to put any money in my pocket beyond what a lighter solid black calf can do. If I'm not going to get payed for extra growth then it's a simple choice to keep the cows that will cost less to maintain and make money by saving it.

 

[Herefords.US]

HG this is one of those threads that needs a commercial board. Commercial guys are thinking more about getting a calf up to weight, off momma, and off our limited pastures ASAP for as cheap as possible.

George, Gyr cattle grow slower than anything but the mature size is probably one of the largest. Ask Glenn to show you some cow/calf photos I sent him. Some of those moderate cows will take almost 8 month to get a calf up to 650.

JW, regardless of the breed or breeds involved, if you select your replacement heifers based primarily on their growth, AND you select the bulls you use also based on growth, your cowherd will steadily increase in mature size as well. Are there curve bending bulls? Sure, but I would think it would be very hard to identify that trait in any commercial cattle setting, much less harness it with any reliability.

 

[js1234]

we keep moderately sized feminine heifers. we make a couple cuts. when fields are weaned, steers are for the most part shipped as bawlers and a large first cut of the heifers are too. the dinks and jumbos that dont fit anything are then sorted off the heifers. if my goal is to keep say 400 heifers, i may start the process with 500-600 "potential replacements" wean them let them all grow up over the summer in the case of California. after a few months, we will sort again and sell or send to feed 1-2 loads of what typically winds up being very attractive feeder heifers we have sorted off what we viewed as the bottom cut of the replacements. in recent years, many times those heifers have gone on to be made into cows by other operators. also the last few years, we have sorted some front end type cows into pasture groups and bred them to sets of full brothers that we felt had an opportunity to help build a nice replacement with an eye on keeping a greater % of those heifer calves than other fields. as our California cow herd has grown to a greater percentage of angus we have been doing this with hereford bulls to a greater extent with and eye on making more baldy and brockle face heifers with a higher degree of heterosis. we do very much the same thing with our Nevada heifers but due to the demands of the harsh country, even more importance is placed on a moderate heifer that will grow up to be an efficient mother cow. I'm sure there is no "set" way or answer but after some trial and error over the years, this fits us pretty good. i know some other large operations keep more heifers as a percentage of their calf crop and sell their cows younger, as they feel the revenue from selling bred cows makes this lucrative and for them it very well may be. we've always had the view that those middle age to older cows dont lose enough ground in terms of pounds of beef weaned to outstrip what they bring to the table knowing the country and how to get the job done. infact, for about 12-15 years now we have sorted about 100 head of our oldest cows into one field where they can be babied a bit if need be and with little to no increase in the care/feed/supplement, they wean calves right along with all their younger peers. it does bear mentioning though, that at preg check, all cows are mouthed and any smooth mouth cows are sent to town along with the opens in our California program and the next rung younger (1-2 teeth) would most of the time go too in Nevada due to the big tough country they run in.