Keeping Replacements, and not Breed specific.

[cow pollinater]

we keep moderately sized feminine heifers. we make a couple cuts. when fields are weaned, steers are for the most part shipped as bawlers and a large first cut of the heifers are too. the dinks and jumbos that dont fit anything are then sorted off the heifers. if my goal is to keep say 400 heifers, i may start the process with 500-600 "potential replacements" wean them let them all grow up over the summer in the case of California. after a few months, we will sort again and sell or send to feed 1-2 loads of what typically winds up being very attractive feeder heifers we have sorted off what we viewed as the bottom cut of the replacements. in recent years, many times those heifers have gone on to be made into cows by other operators. also the last few years, we have sorted some front end type cows into pasture groups and bred them to sets of full brothers that we felt had an opportunity to help build a nice replacement with an eye on keeping a greater % of those heifer calves than other fields. as our California cow herd has grown to a greater percentage of angus we have been doing this with hereford bulls to a greater extent with and eye on making more baldy and brockle face heifers with a higher degree of heterosis. we do very much the same thing with our Nevada heifers but due to the demands of the harsh country, even more importance is placed on a moderate heifer that will grow up to be an efficient mother cow. I'm sure there is no "set" way or answer but after some trial and error over the years, this fits us pretty good. i know some other large operations keep more heifers as a percentage of their calf crop and sell their cows younger, as they feel the revenue from selling bred cows makes this lucrative and for them it very well may be. we've always had the view that those middle age to older cows dont lose enough ground in terms of pounds of beef weaned to outstrip what they bring to the table knowing the country and how to get the job done. infact, for about 12-15 years now we have sorted about 100 head of our oldest cows into one field where they can be babied a bit if need be and with little to no increase in the care/feed/supplement, they wean calves right along with all their younger peers. it does bear mentioning though, that at preg check, all cows are mouthed and any smooth mouth cows are sent to town along with the opens in our California program and the next rung younger (1-2 teeth) would most of the time go too in Nevada due to the big tough country they run in.

I do the same on a much smaller scale. The problem with selling younger bred cows for me has been that I lose my cows that really know how to use that country and it takes some living for them to get the hang of it so I'd much rather have an old productive cow that knows where water is and will travel than a young cow that camps at the bottom.

 

[js1234]

we keep moderately sized feminine heifers. we make a couple cuts. when fields are weaned, steers are for the most part shipped as bawlers and a large first cut of the heifers are too. the dinks and jumbos that dont fit anything are then sorted off the heifers. if my goal is to keep say 400 heifers, i may start the process with 500-600 "potential replacements" wean them let them all grow up over the summer in the case of California. after a few months, we will sort again and sell or send to feed 1-2 loads of what typically winds up being very attractive feeder heifers we have sorted off what we viewed as the bottom cut of the replacements. in recent years, many times those heifers have gone on to be made into cows by other operators. also the last few years, we have sorted some front end type cows into pasture groups and bred them to sets of full brothers that we felt had an opportunity to help build a nice replacement with an eye on keeping a greater % of those heifer calves than other fields. as our California cow herd has grown to a greater percentage of angus we have been doing this with hereford bulls to a greater extent with and eye on making more baldy and brockle face heifers with a higher degree of heterosis. we do very much the same thing with our Nevada heifers but due to the demands of the harsh country, even more importance is placed on a moderate heifer that will grow up to be an efficient mother cow. I'm sure there is no "set" way or answer but after some trial and error over the years, this fits us pretty good. i know some other large operations keep more heifers as a percentage of their calf crop and sell their cows younger, as they feel the revenue from selling bred cows makes this lucrative and for them it very well may be. we've always had the view that those middle age to older cows dont lose enough ground in terms of pounds of beef weaned to outstrip what they bring to the table knowing the country and how to get the job done. infact, for about 12-15 years now we have sorted about 100 head of our oldest cows into one field where they can be babied a bit if need be and with little to no increase in the care/feed/supplement, they wean calves right along with all their younger peers. it does bear mentioning though, that at preg check, all cows are mouthed and any smooth mouth cows are sent to town along with the opens in our California program and the next rung younger (1-2 teeth) would most of the time go too in Nevada due to the big tough country they run in.

I do the same on a much smaller scale. The problem with selling younger bred cows for me has been that I lose my cows that really know how to use that country and it takes some living for them to get the hang of it so I'd much rather have an old productive cow that knows where water is and will travel than a young cow that camps at the bottom.

i agree with you completely and think some guys who do the opposite of what you and i are advocating (I've got some great friends who I view as outstanding ranchers who disagree with you and I, so it is a preference thing to an extent) aren't placing a fair value on what those older native cows are bringing to the table.

 

[hillbilly beef man]

I select on how good a calf her mother raises, dispisition, how long her bloodline stays productive, dispisition, how she has gained weight compared to her herd mates, and disposition. Did I mention I select replacements based in dispisition. Thanks to to years of this selection process we have a very calm herd. I was needing to expand quicker than I could raise replacements so for the first time in 15 years I had to buy some heifers. I had forgot how much of a pain it is to get new cattle calmed down and bucket trained. After a couple of months of working with them nine have settled down and are doing fine. Two are going to the sale barn this fall after they calve if they do not settle down some more.

 

[Big Cheese]

Right now we are keeping mostly all of our heifers because we are building our herd but once we are done doing that then I will base my replacements off of how good of a cow their mother is and also on how big they could possibly get. I want my cows to not get to far over 1000 pounds when they are full grown and bred. They will eat less and not cost as much to feed. I sale the bigger ones at sale time because they bring more money at that time. That's just my 2 cents on the matter and how our mentor taught us.

 

[Dave]

I know one guy in Montana who keeps all of his heifers (about 250). Breeds them all and then ultra sounds them at preg check. Those having the earliest calves and having a bull calf get moved up on the keep list. Or at least those two points are used in considering who stays and who goes. The rest are all sold off as bred heifers.

 

[Supa Dexta]

How is her mothers udder, feet, and how she winters. Calved early in the season, birth weight to some extent. And if shes one of the fattest at weaning she goes. Get more dollars for her then, and I find the biggest fattest just become big hogs of cows, the upper middle ground is where I do my picking.

 

[Herefords.US]

How is her mothers udder, feet, and how she winters. Calved early in the season, birth weight to some extent. And if shes one of the fattest at weaning she goes. Get more dollars for her then, and I find the biggest fattest just become big hogs of cows, the upper middle ground is where I do my picking.

I've seen a number of comments over the years about "milk" skipping generations, because a good mama makes her daughters so fat as calves that their udder fills up with fat cells, therefore they don't milk as good as their mama did. I've seen some evidence of truth in personal observations, but not enough yet to convince me that it is nearly always true.

 

[Supa Dexta]

Yeah, a big fat heifer is impressive at weaning time, but I just don't look at them as replacements. I'll take my top dollar per pound and carry on.

Also horns are a ticket out of here as well, which sucks at times (even though I remove them).. as they still spring up now and then. Surprisingly attitude doesn't always follow the mother though. Have had some crazy cows throw some easy going replacements and some avg calves turn high headed over time. So I haven't mastered predicting that trait at all yet. I calve primarily in the woods now, so I like a cow with a bit of fight in her during the first bit, then they usually calm down once the calf is a bit independent.

 

[Big Cheese]

We do the same thing. The bigger heifers go to the sale and get top dollar then and we keep the slightly smaller heifer. Makes a smaller cow that still raises a big ol calf.

 

[branguscowgirl]

I will no doubt get blasted for this. :hide: But the thing that does not always hold true, (at least in my family line of Brangus) is that the same cow can wean off that "big ole heifer" just as well as next time a "moderate" size one.
I AI so I can get either frame size with just a change of the straw. With that said, I can keep any size heifer for a replacement, IFshe has all of the other traits that I desire.
I know that many of you do not believe that "larger" cattle can be efficient. But those of us that have some of these big ole "easy keepers" that drop their calves out like poo know that they can be. ;-)

 

[Caustic Burno]

In a commercial operation retaining heifers has never penciled out for me.
I can come up with no good reason for the dam to not generate any income for two years.
Plus put two years in on a maybe in retaining the heifer.
I just can't wrap my head around feeding two cows for a couple of years with no income.
Secondly the retained heifer can't be wrote off if she croaks.

 

[Andyva]

In a commercial operation retaining heifers has never penciled out for me.
I can come up with no good reason for the dam to not generate any income for two years.
Plus put two years in on a maybe in retaining the heifer.
I just can't wrap my head around feeding two cows for a couple of years with no income.
Secondly the retained heifer can't be wrote off if she croaks.

So, do you steal your replacements? What the heck difference would it make if a cow makes you $1200 or a heifer that you would have cost you $1200? You are going to pay more money for one that's ready to drop, or a pair or a three in one. I would hope that you can produce one for less than market price, if not, you might want to look at your business model. Maybes are pretty rare with good selection, and you can't use just one selection criteria. You have a long time to make up your mind on one you raise yourself compared to throwing up your hand in a sale ring on something you don't know anything about. Maybe my pencil is broke.

 

[Caustic Burno]

In a commercial operation retaining heifers has never penciled out for me.
I can come up with no good reason for the dam to not generate any income for two years.
Plus put two years in on a maybe in retaining the heifer.
I just can't wrap my head around feeding two cows for a couple of years with no income.
Secondly the retained heifer can't be wrote off if she croaks.

So, do you steal your replacements? What the heck difference would it make if a cow makes you $1200 or a heifer that you would have cost you $1200? You are going to pay more money for one that's ready to drop, or a pair or a three in one. I would hope that you can produce one for less than market price, if not, you might want to look at your business model. Maybes are pretty rare with good selection, and you can't use just one selection criteria. You have a long time to make up your mind on one you raise yourself compared to throwing up your hand in a sale ring on something you don't know anything about. Maybe my pencil is broke.

Your pencil is broke. They are no where close to being free.
You put nearly 1200 dollars in the dam with no return for two years.
Another 1000 dollars in the heifer until she has a product if she does.
This is on a conservative 1.50 a day upkeep.
The average heifer cost 2200 bucks to retain and raise.
Why would anyone in their right mind invest that kind of money on a maybe.
There is no advantage to raising a heifer over buying a cow ready to work.
No genetic benefit is achieved in a terminal cow/calf operation. Actually you giving away hybred vigor
as you no longer have an F-1 you now have an F-2 breeding back making an F-3.
Unless you are putting the heifer on different bulls of different breed you loose pounds.
Secondly you can not write her off if she dies the heifer has no value to the IRS until bought or sold.
You have wrote all the cost of her upkeep.
This only gets worse in hybred vigor is you are using an F-1 cow to get the most potential with a three way cross.
If the cross becomes four way with the retained heifer you are losing 7 to 10 % .

 

[Andyva]

By your logic, I would have to buy pedigreed heifers to keep any chance of hybrid vigor. They ain't free to raise but they better darn well be cheaper to raise than what pedigreed cattle sell for bred, or we is goin in da hole. Dam making no return for two years, come on now, what about the heifer standing in your pasture? She is worth something, especially if you know when she bred, what she was bred to and whether she was raised on a nurse cow that had Johne's because her mama didn't have no milk. Plus you already know if she is nuts, she already knows where the food and water is and where the gates are, and what your truck sounds like. Didn't burn any gas going to get her, didn't waste time looking at a bunch of junk to pick her out. If the dam is worth keeping a heifer out of, she has done made up for any lost return in her previous calves.

 

[bball]

By your logic, I would have to buy pedigreed heifers to keep any chance of hybrid vigor. They ain't free to raise but they better darn well be cheaper to raise than what pedigreed cattle sell for bred, or we is goin in da hole. Dam making no return for two years, come on now, what about the heifer standing in your pasture? She is worth something, especially if you know when she bred, what she was bred to and whether she was raised on a nurse cow that had Johne's because her mama didn't have no milk. Plus you already know if she is nuts, she already knows where the food and water is and where the gates are, and what your truck sounds like. Didn't burn any gas going to get her, didn't waste time looking at a bunch of junk to pick her out. If the dam is worth keeping a heifer out of, she has done made up for any lost return in her previous calves.

Andy, I think what CB is saying is in a terminal commercial operation, it doesn't pencil out. You're keeping stock instead of selling your product. If it costs you 2200 to keep a heifer at 1.50 a day (which is really having your shyt together imho) and you can purchase a quality cow at the barn or elsewhere for less than 2200, it's basic economics to build/maintain your herd elsewhere. Especially in light of how important 3waycross is to the overall productivity of the terminal producer. Wouldn't have to buy pedigreed, just f1s if possible. I have wrestled with this for years back and forth, and I'm convinced smarter money for a terminal guy like me is to pick up animals outside of my herd. The heifers I have kept end up being f2s that just never produce like f1 dams.

 

[js1234]

What CB is saying isn't bad logic for many programs a great part of the time. it varies from region to region but this year out here the caliber of heifer that we are producing with all production costs and the opportunity cost of not selling her is somewhere around $2,350-$2,400. we cannot buy those heifers for that figure out here currently and also couldn't count on getting them with the continuity of genetics etc., i'd insist on in the volume in which i need them at the moment. that said, we keep heifers basically every year at a rate of 12.5% of the brood cow herd to replace at a 10% figure. while we aren't a 100% closed herd, we very nearly are and we place a lot of value on our decades of breeding and running a set of one iron cows. this is part of why we retain heifers every year. that said there is no denying that many years for many operations if looking strictly from an economic standpoint, assuming the heifers can be sourced in the quality and quantity needed, buying bred heifers will pencil better than retaining one's home raised heifers. id also add that if one isn't producing heifers that he truly thinks are better within their program than the product he could go buy with the proceeds from the sales of said heifers, why would that producer keep any of his heifers?

 

[Rafter S]

By your logic, I would have to buy pedigreed heifers to keep any chance of hybrid vigor. They ain't free to raise but they better darn well be cheaper to raise than what pedigreed cattle sell for bred, or we is goin in da hole. Dam making no return for two years, come on now, what about the heifer standing in your pasture? She is worth something, especially if you know when she bred, what she was bred to and whether she was raised on a nurse cow that had Johne's because her mama didn't have no milk. Plus you already know if she is nuts, she already knows where the food and water is and where the gates are, and what your truck sounds like. Didn't burn any gas going to get her, didn't waste time looking at a bunch of junk to pick her out. If the dam is worth keeping a heifer out of, she has done made up for any lost return in her previous calves.

Andy, I think what CB is saying is in a terminal commercial operation, it doesn't pencil out. You're keeping stock instead of selling your product. If it costs you 2200 to keep a heifer at 1.50 a day (which is really having your shyt together imho) and you can purchase a quality cow at the barn or elsewhere for less than 2200, it's basic economics to build/maintain your herd elsewhere. Especially in light of how important 3waycross is to the overall productivity of the terminal producer. Wouldn't have to buy pedigreed, just f1s if possible. I have wrestled with this for years back and forth, and I'm convinced smarter money for a terminal guy like me is to pick up animals outside of my herd. The heifers I have kept end up being f2s that just never produce like f1 dams.

Where do you find those, especially F1's?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Not hard to find around here.
Certified F-1 through the barn 1K she was 2nd place at the fair. Hereford X Brahman cross know the ranch she
came off of.


780 Bucks for her and should have bought the rest I hauled that morning off that guys place.


I couldn't raise them for that price in 2012 and I still can't raise them today for what I can find them for.
Can buy them almost any week less than I can raise them for.
I can buy 800 pound heifers through the barn today for 1600 bucks can't raise them for that.


There is no economic or hybred advantage in a terminal Cow/Calf operation to retaining only disadvantage.
Only limited ways to maximize hybred vigor for a calf that will grade and mash the scales.

 

[Andyva]

I worked for a guy that bought a beautiful group of Limo/Char cows aged 3 and 4, paid dearly for them. Lost a couple when they turned five, lost about three more when the next year. They would drop a calf and turn in to a skeleton, big lump under their neck, spraying poop everywhere. They would fall over dead if you kept them around long enough. The vet finally clued him in on the reason the previous owner had an entire herd of cattle with nothing over 4, and why someone would sell an entire herd of cattle that were in their prime. I was the tractor guy on that deal, stayed away from the pencil, but judging from the fact that he had to sell most of his homegrown cattle to keep the bank happy it couldn't have been pretty. Still trying to figure out why anyone would produce a quality F1 heifer or young cow out of a top shelf dam and sell it bred for anything less than what it cost to produce up to that point. I guess you could mouth an old widow woman's cows for her and take all of the "old" ones off her hands at cull cow prices and make it work.

 

[Big Cheese]

We have done both keeping our own heifers and buying heifers to start building our herd back to where we want it. Now we are closing our herd and only retaining our own heifers. Now if I could get heifers like CB was showing for that price in my area I would happily do it in a heartbeat those are some really good heifers for that price.

The advantage that I see in keeping your own heifers regardless of how much it costs to keep them up and get them going is that they are already acclimated to your system. They have your minerals in their system....they have your vaccines in their system.....that don't have any diseases that you have been working to keep out of your herd (we've been burned with buying 8 bred heifers and they ended up having BVD and almost ruined our calf crop for the year)....they know where to go for hay and feed in your pasture.....and they know who you are and what you bring them when your around. That can go a long ways in my book for a heifer\cow. Also, when you do breed them you know what they are bred to and what to possibly expect from their first calf. Now I will say this...I have done some calculations with our homegrown heifers that we have retained over the last few years and it takes about 3 years from the day they were born for you to sell a calf off of them. Just what i've observed from our heifers and letting them breed when they are ready to breed. Now their is advantages for buying bred heifers as well. They can have a calf earlier then what your heifers will have which is always good and you start making money off of them faster....but you don't know what they are bred too unless you know where they come from and what they use. You can also save a little money possibly in the long run on them with feed costs because there isn't as much up keep with them then their is with your homegrown heifers. But think of it this way....are you really saving money by selling you homegrown heifers that is already acclimated to you and your system and your pasture and buying bred heifers?

I think there is advantages in both ways and you can't go wrong with either way that you choose. Always go with what you like to do with your herd and roll with it. In my opinion...I like retaining our own heifers and growing them on the place. There is just something about watching them from when they are born to when they have their first calf and to when you sell that first calf. I just like seeing the process no matter how lengthy it is.

Just my opinion and 2 cents on this matter. Thought I would share.