TexasBred
Well-known member
lms the man has a dairy and runs red brahman bulls with the jersey dairy cattle. He keeps the offspring for the beef cow herd. Any he wants to sell bring a tremendous premium.lms0229":w7wemtwa said:
Jersey heifer - Bull selection advice
- Thread starter lms0229
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Redgully
Well-known member
TexasBred":w1hrti1t said:
Does he have calving trouble? I guess not or he wouldn't keep doing it. I tried brahman twice and the calves were so long the cows really struggled. One was breech and the other still born. The breech was out of a murray grey cow and we steered him and butchered him at 15 months and the meat wasn't great. Been to nervous to try again. This was 21 years ago now.
Cows will struggle a little with big calves sometimes but if the calves are alive and turn out great then what's the issue? We calve out big calves consistently and the only ones we have ever lost were a set of twins. Otherwise cows can have big calves and deal with a little struggle.
farmerjan
Well-known member
lms0229":2lcbd3kg said:
The reason I asked about what breed(s) of cattle you had as to understand better why you were so torn between the 3 very different sires to use. And thought that perhaps you hadn't been breeding cattle very long and so was not well versed in different breeds and their resulting offspring. I asked what you were planning to do with the resulting calf because if it was a heifer, and you were planning to keep it then it would be different if it were to be a terminal cross and the calf would be leaving. I am assuming from what you have written that you direct market your beef. Here in this area, the "coat color" of the calf will have a huge impact on the saleability of the calf if you are not direct marketing as freezer beef. I've been there, done that, and find that I no longer want to deal with the public to direct market the beef, except to tried and true regular customers. By the way, I raise and sell nearly all my jersey and jersey cross calves as direct marketed beef, and have for many years.
I already said I must have misunderstood your phrasing on the affect the service sire would have on the milking ability of the heifer.
I made the comment on the reason why the guy used a red brahma bull on his jerseys, instead of a jersey bull on red brahmas, that was in part due to the disposition of a jersey bull. I had forgotten that in a previous thread it was once revealed that he had a milking herd of jerseys and the red brahma crossed calves were a "value added product" as opposed to trying to market jersey bull calves.
There are quite a few dairies here that are breeding the lower 1/2 or 2/3rds of their milking herd to beef bulls, AI, to give them a little more value back on the calves. And yes, 99% of them are using "black" bulls because that is what sells. They are using sexed semen on their best cows to be able to keep the heifers from those breedings to go back into their milking herd. The dairy industry is in very difficult straights and any way that the farmers can improve the value of their calves, they are trying.
I will have to say that we do not see any reduction in size of our beef calves in the fall compared to the spring. Perhaps that is because of the abundance of good grazing that we have and the good nutrition the cows get during the grazing months. The bulls we use are specifically chosen for the size of calves that they throw. We also buy from breeders that do not creep feed their calves, while on their dams, so the calf has to grow from the ability of the dam to produce enough milk on a forage based system. Grain is a treat for our cattle, it trains them to come into the catch pens and trains the calf to learn to eat out of the feed bunks so that when weaned and retained, they are not traumatized and go backwards for those first few weeks. We have 2 bulls that are specifically used for calving ease and have not had a calf over 70# from either. The heifers have them, lick them off, they get up and off they go. We have several bulls that are used specifically on cows and are plus on calf size so we do not keep breeding our cows smaller over the years of retention of replacement heifers.
TexasBred - That makes sense in his situation for sure! Those were very nice looking crosses.
FarmerJan - I really only have personal experience with large breed cows/heifers, so now that I have a few Jerseys in the mix and looking at having them AI'd... I did my homework but reading books doesn't give me real-world experiences in that area, so that is why I wanted others input. I knew to rule out my larger bulls and narrowed it down to 3 breeds but I was concerned because my Jersey heifers are small in comparison to my other girls and this one has narrow pins and she is my favorite out of the bunch! I am wanting the Jersey influence in my herd and would like to have about 1/4 Jersey to increase their milk quality and production in rearing the best calves possible, but I don't want so much milk that I have to add calves to them. Because my cattle are larger, the calves would benefit in reaching their growth and marbling potential from adding high component milk genetics to their mothers. I have only selected Jerseys with high components and hope to achieve around 2 gallons a day but no less than 1 1/2 gallons in the final crosses.
That's smart on using the bigger bulls for the older cows because I have heard of that happening (breeding smaller) in people's herds overtime.
FarmerJan - I really only have personal experience with large breed cows/heifers, so now that I have a few Jerseys in the mix and looking at having them AI'd... I did my homework but reading books doesn't give me real-world experiences in that area, so that is why I wanted others input. I knew to rule out my larger bulls and narrowed it down to 3 breeds but I was concerned because my Jersey heifers are small in comparison to my other girls and this one has narrow pins and she is my favorite out of the bunch! I am wanting the Jersey influence in my herd and would like to have about 1/4 Jersey to increase their milk quality and production in rearing the best calves possible, but I don't want so much milk that I have to add calves to them. Because my cattle are larger, the calves would benefit in reaching their growth and marbling potential from adding high component milk genetics to their mothers. I have only selected Jerseys with high components and hope to achieve around 2 gallons a day but no less than 1 1/2 gallons in the final crosses.
That's smart on using the bigger bulls for the older cows because I have heard of that happening (breeding smaller) in people's herds overtime.
farmerjan
Well-known member
Ims0229; I think you might have achieved your goal of jersey influence in your herd quicker, and in a more uniform way, if you had used jersey semen and AI'd the cows that you were hoping to get improved heifers out of. You could have used sexed semen so that you would get mostly all 1/2 jersey heifer calves then used an easy calving angus on those heifers and gotten to the 1/4 jersey you said you were hoping to reach. I am afraid that, if the jersey heifers you have now to breed, are out of decent milking stock, you are going to find that they will produce much too much milk and will have to have at least one more calf grafted on them. A mediocre milking jersey will produce in the neighborhood of at least 20-30 lbs per day and will be way too much for a single calf; a good one will produce 30-50 lbs per day. Even if you do not grain them.
Never having run cattle in Texas, I cannot judge the effects of the heat and different grasses, but you will find they normally will not keep condition if just put out on grass like a beef animal. They are simply not designed for it genetically. They have been bred for too many years for increased production, and for that they have become genetically inclined to need the concentrates. I grain mine because I want them to produce more milk so they can raise more calves per lactation. With the cost of keeping an animal for a year, I have to get at least 3 calves off my jerseys to justify the added grain costs, in part due to the fact that the calves will bring less at the sales. Even private, the dairy cross calves do not bring near what a beef breed calf brings.
One other thing, a dairy animal will literally "milk the fat off it's back"; in other words, they go into a negative ketotic balance and it does take off any extra fat on their bodies. Therefore, if they are making the milk, they also will be less likely to come into heat near as soon, if they are not being supplemented. That will be a longer calving interval. The genetics will cause them to produce milk even if you are not feeding for it, so they will lose weight in the beginning.
Another thing you need to be aware of, jerseys are very prone to "milk fever" and the older they get the more likely they will come down with it; both before and right at calving.
What other breed of cattle do you have that you say are "large breed". We have commercial angus, charolais, herefords, and limousin and a few simmental crosses, as well as some registered red polls. Have had some chianina's and they are big and tall. Have used some belgian blue AI in the past, so I have some experience with larger beef breeds. Also have had every common breed of dairy cattle in the past.
Never having run cattle in Texas, I cannot judge the effects of the heat and different grasses, but you will find they normally will not keep condition if just put out on grass like a beef animal. They are simply not designed for it genetically. They have been bred for too many years for increased production, and for that they have become genetically inclined to need the concentrates. I grain mine because I want them to produce more milk so they can raise more calves per lactation. With the cost of keeping an animal for a year, I have to get at least 3 calves off my jerseys to justify the added grain costs, in part due to the fact that the calves will bring less at the sales. Even private, the dairy cross calves do not bring near what a beef breed calf brings.
One other thing, a dairy animal will literally "milk the fat off it's back"; in other words, they go into a negative ketotic balance and it does take off any extra fat on their bodies. Therefore, if they are making the milk, they also will be less likely to come into heat near as soon, if they are not being supplemented. That will be a longer calving interval. The genetics will cause them to produce milk even if you are not feeding for it, so they will lose weight in the beginning.
Another thing you need to be aware of, jerseys are very prone to "milk fever" and the older they get the more likely they will come down with it; both before and right at calving.
What other breed of cattle do you have that you say are "large breed". We have commercial angus, charolais, herefords, and limousin and a few simmental crosses, as well as some registered red polls. Have had some chianina's and they are big and tall. Have used some belgian blue AI in the past, so I have some experience with larger beef breeds. Also have had every common breed of dairy cattle in the past.
FarmerJan - Omgosh yes I completely agree with you that usain't Jersey semen to AI would have been quicker and easier and ironically that was/is the game plan! The heifer calf I was talking about earlier is half Jersey and half Romagnola and the momma is the Romagnola and the sire is Jersey. It is one of those situations we sometimes find ourselves in... I took in some mistreated Jersey heifers around Christmas last year... I had the means and some extra time and my heart gave in for the sorry little things and some needed bottles (some were older) and my husband (eye roll) has been wanting to make homemade butter (I have no idea lol) so I took these little girls in and I nearly died... not even joking! We couldn't save all of them and we thought lack of colostrum and pneumonia were the issue....until I got really really sick. I have had mono and strep at the same time and it didn't even touch this stuff... Finally, diagnosed with Cryptosporidium... my husband got sick a week after me and we missed the holidays with our families last year. Luckily, we got better and with the help of our friend who is a vet we were able to save the other heifers. I am much more educated now to say the least and I was already an OCD clean freak but I think I went through 3 gallons of bleach the first week scrubbing and cleaning everything in sight. Soooo..... long story short.... after going through all of that I have sort of bonded with these girls in making sure they don't go back to a situation like that. Yes I raise cattle for food but I believe that all living things should be given respect and a good quality of life. So again now I have 5 Jersey heifers (A Jersey/Holstein cross, Jersey/Angus, a standard size fullblood Jersey and 2 that I believe will be mid-size Jerseys at full maturity but one may qualify as a mini at full maturity). The Jersey/Angus and the Jersey/Holstein are the oldest and pregnant and are due to calve around the same time... The Jersey/Angus has major attitude problems and I will be trying to graft her calf onto the Jersey/Holstein and then take her to slaughter... not going to pass that nutty onto someone else! The Jersey/Holstein is super sweet and I think will make a good momma and I can always graft additional calves onto her if need be. The oldest fullblood Jersey is my favorite and extremely sweet (the one with narrow pins) and would let us milk her as would the younger 2, but I may give the younger 2 to a Jersey heritage breeder in my area but I haven't decided on that yet. So... long explanation but now you see how I am where I am... so I am trying to use these girls since I have them, but I have never had Jerseys so I am inexperienced with them but been reading a bunch to educate myself with the breed.
I have experience with larger breeds like Romagnola, Ancient White Parks (not the fake White Parks), Chianina, Angus, Normande and Maremmana.
I have experience with larger breeds like Romagnola, Ancient White Parks (not the fake White Parks), Chianina, Angus, Normande and Maremmana.
