Is this accurate

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Frankie

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northtexas":2opb04pe said:
http://www.naab-css.org/sales/table29.html

I couldn't believe how low the Horned Hereford semen sales were in the US.
2008 sales 2007 sales
HEREFORD 1,255 4,060 -69.09%

If so, I think a lot has to do with the idiotic certificate prices.

1255 units sold? Wow.

But Polled Herefords were one of the few breeds whose sales were up. Don't all Hereford certificates all come from the AHA?
 

Brandonm22

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northtexas":11fdtfc1 said:
http://www.naab-css.org/sales/table29.html

I couldn't believe how low the Horned Hereford semen sales were in the US.
2008 sales 2007 sales
HEREFORD 1,255 4,060 -69.09%

If so, I think a lot has to do with the idiotic certificate prices.

1255 units sold? Wow.


The horned Herefords (in the U.S. that is almost ALL Line 1s) took a hit that year from the idiopathic epilepsy thing. I expect 2009 will be much much better. I admire good horned genetics (see the newest addition to Lorenzo's stable); but unless you are a breeder of horned Hereford genetics, why would you knowingly bring the horned gene into your polled commercial herd?? IF I want baldies, I am looking for a polled Hereford and really there hasn't been a really interesting widely talked about horned bull in the last five years.
 

Brandonm22

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Also 77,000 units were frozen and only 1255 were sold??? You got to wonder if Cooper, Holden, or all the big Line One ranches are reporting their off farm semen sales to this outfit that prepares the report. I know I wouldn't if I were them.

All I am saying is that I haven't seen many young horned bulls being widely promoted recently that were at the WOW level of 9126J.

I do really like what little I have seen of this bull......

http://www.holdenherefords.com/sires/0024k.html
 

OLF

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Brandonm22":ohoju3eq said:
The horned Herefords (in the U.S. that is almost ALL Line 1s) took a hit that year from the idiopathic epilepsy thing. I expect 2009 will be much much better. I admire good horned genetics (see the newest addition to Lorenzo's stable); but unless you are a breeder of horned Hereford genetics, why would you knowingly bring the horned gene into your polled commercial herd?? IF I want baldies, I am looking for a polled Hereford and really there hasn't been a really interesting widely talked about horned bull in the last five years.

If you have polled Herefords, I think that the polled and horned Herefords have diverged far enough. that you can use horned genetics to get some hybrid vigor while remaining purebred.
 

JHH

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Brandonm22":2t4prnr8 said:
Also 77,000 units were frozen and only 1255 were sold??? You got to wonder if Cooper, Holden, or all the big Line One ranches are reporting their off farm semen sales to this outfit that prepares the report. I know I wouldn't if I were them.

All I am saying is that I haven't seen many young horned bulls being widely promoted recently that were at the WOW level of 9126J.

I do really like what little I have seen of this bull......

http://www.holdenherefords.com/sires/0024k.html

While 9126J and the 024 bull are impressive I would have to consider Neon to be the one to watch. He is the sire of Rambo but I think Rambo is to big framed. I am not sure how big Neon really is I have never seen him but Rambo has to be a frame 7 or bigger.

But you are right on the fact that no one seems to be pushing any one horned bull. JHH
 

dun

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A couple of years back I was talking to one of the large studs and they said that the primary market for Herefords is south america. They didn;t speicify horned or polled, just Herefords in general.
 

Brandonm22

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OLF":1okmrx63 said:
Brandonm22":1okmrx63 said:
The horned Herefords (in the U.S. that is almost ALL Line 1s) took a hit that year from the idiopathic epilepsy thing. I expect 2009 will be much much better. I admire good horned genetics (see the newest addition to Lorenzo's stable); but unless you are a breeder of horned Hereford genetics, why would you knowingly bring the horned gene into your polled commercial herd?? IF I want baldies, I am looking for a polled Hereford and really there hasn't been a really interesting widely talked about horned bull in the last five years.

If you have polled Herefords, I think that the polled and horned Herefords have diverged far enough. that you can use horned genetics to get some hybrid vigor while remaining purebred.

I COULD be wrong on this; but I suspect that more than half of the beef semen purchased (particularly that marketed through the big studs like ABS, Select Sires, Genex, etc) goes into COMMERCIAL cows. In that multibreed scenario, I would question if you would want to add the horn gene into the mix unless you just can't get an equivalent Polled Hereford bull. In the commercial world, I can get more hybrid vigour by using Hereford on Angus and Charolais type cows and vice versa than by outcrossing different Hereford lines.
 

KNERSIE

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I agree with Brandon that the horned genepool has become too one dimensional, the horned genepool is dominated by L1 with two Canadian lines almost making up the rest of the entire population.

Just from observing from the outside the leading L1 herds has lost a lot of body depth and guts in their herds. That automatically counts them out for the harsher conditions.

Rambo is a type very much needed in the horned breed in my opinion, pity he isn't slightly more moderate.

The commercial bull market dictates what the vast majority of breeders will breed and for my market its poll herefords, I cannot give a horned bull away.
 

Arkieman

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What do you guys think about Harland? Thinking of using him on some Angus cows. Anybody know what frame size he is? My cows are prob 5.5 - 6. I'm trying to grow a herd. The cows I have are workers, they're pretty low maintenance and I want to keep them that way. I probably need to add a little more bone though.
 

Northern Rancher

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Is that just into purebred cattle-I haven't got my lease payment from Genex yet for the first quarter but I know that at least 250 units have been sold in my neck of the woods this spring. Horned Herefords on straight Angus cows won't give you enough horns to be much of a problem-polled Herefords are pretty much a rare breed up here any more-i'd say too much birthweight etc was their major problem.
 

Brandonm22

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ABS advertises on their web site: 6 horned bulls including Robin Hood (1996), L1 Domino 804 (1988), and Star Donald 335F (1984) and 12 polled bulls. Accelerated Genetics promotes 8 Hereford sires (I think) all polled sires. Select Sires promotes 8 Hereford sires again I think all polled sires. Genex has NR's Lad bull and (I think) 3 other Horned bulls in their lineup and 12 polled bulls in their main sire catalog plus 2 polled and 1 horned in their "Added Attractions". By my rushed cowboy math, that is 11:42 in favor of the polled bulls. Now ABS has gone out and gotten 3 young sires including Harland to recommitt to their Horned lineup which admittedly had gotten a little stale.
 

Brandonm22

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northtexas":2xwf4m3b said:
What are the two Canadian bloodlines?

Are there any straight "Mark Donalds" left? I the Mark Donald - L1 cross was a big hit for a while.

I am not as knowledgable as many others on the boards when it comes to blood lines and pedigrees; but I view the old Ochs Bros line as "Canadian"

http://www.harpercattle.com/sires.html

Ace Deimert who sometimes posts on here (I believe) also raises mostly "Canadian" Herefords.

http://www.ngrbulls.com/diemert_ranch_herefords.htm

I think BB Cattle dispersed their Mark Donalds ~4 years ago; but I COULD be wrong on that. They are still selling semen.

http://www.bbcattle.com/semen_list.htm
 

Northern Rancher

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It really doesn't matter if he's American, Canadian or Swedish he just had better be good. Semen certificates are just a licence to steal in my opinion. If a breeder did me the compliment of using my genetics I'll be damn ed if I'd 'fine' him for it. So many people want to get as much money as they can as quick as they can. I'd be happy to still be selling semen twenty years after my bull is dead.
 

P.A.L

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Northern Rancher":1tvmv9cy said:
It really doesn't matter if he's American, Canadian or Swedish he just had better be good. Semen certificates are just a licence to steal in my opinion. If a breeder did me the compliment of using my genetics I'll be be nice ed if I'd 'fine' him for it. So many people want to get as much money as they can as quick as they can. I'd be happy to still be selling semen twenty years after my bull is dead.

By they way, two weeks ago I got calves from American, Canadian and swedish AI hereford bulls! Let's see who wins!
 

Brandonm22

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Northern Rancher":5dvskokn said:
It really doesn't matter if he's American, Canadian or Swedish he just had better be good. Semen certificates are just a licence to steal in my opinion. If a breeder did me the compliment of using my genetics I'll be be nice ed if I'd 'fine' him for it. So many people want to get as much money as they can as quick as they can. I'd be happy to still be selling semen twenty years after my bull is dead.

Exactly, if you sell 10,000 straws at $25 a piece thats ~$200,000 at $20 a piece after ~$5 a straw in collection/promotion costs. Versus selling 1000 straws at $25 a piece AND 100 certificates at $100 a piece minus $15 per certificate the association makes ($28,500). I have never been convinced that the certificates don't probably in the long run wind up costing you as much sales as they generate in revenue. I know those are EXTREME example hypothetical scenario numbers and they only work if the bull works well enough that people use him year after year; but there is no doubt that many bulls get less orders because of the $100 (or more) certificate prices.
 

bigag03

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That report is generated solely off of numbers turned in to the NAAB by CSS certified studs. It does NOT contain any data from breeders or breed associations. I would say that Hereford breeders are more "in house" marketers and semen sellers than in any other breed. The studs don't have the best bulls in the country because the breeders won't let the studs market semen on their best sires. They sell semen shares and hand select who gets to use the bull. IMO, this is the biggest issue in Hereford cattle today. They do not AI enough and they don't make it accessible to other breeders. As far as the commercial semen goes, the price published on these sires and the cert fees don't mean anything. Most if not all studs offer discounts to commercial breeders and you don't need a cert for a commercial calf.

From the looks of the other posts, I can tell I am in the minority, but I would take a good Horned bull over a polled bull anyday. There is not a polled bull out there that I can truly say is my type of bull. They are too big, too much BW, too much hair, and hard doing. IMO, they were bred for the show ring and only work with a grain bucket tied to their head. BTW Brandon, if you use them on Angus cows you don't get horns.
 

Brandonm22

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bigag03":3m24c8fs said:
BTW Brandon, if you use them on Angus cows you don't get horns.

LISTEN and LEARN. Most people in the commercial world DO NOT have purebred cows....even when they are black. You cross a horned bull on cows descended from horned cows 2 to 4 generations back and some horns will appear (if this is a put together stockyard group it could be more than a few). Worse, now the next generation ALL have the horned gene. Come back with an Angus bull on those MOSTLY polled baldie heifers and you get all polled calves. Cross another HORNED bull on that F3 generation and a bunch of horns are liable to pop up. IF you want to have ALL polled cattle all the time don't ever use horned bulls.
 

bigag03

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You LISTEN and LEARN! In my operation, I will take a horned bull over a polled bull any day because I feel the calves are better. The occurrence of horns is not great enough to matter. Also, dehorning is a fairly simple process that I don't mind. To hit your next argument...if you dehorn early enough, the stress to the calf is not enough to set back growth.
 

Brandonm22

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More power to you if you believe that. As for me, I would rather not deal with horns in Herefords, Gelbviehs, Simmentals, Limousin, Charolais, or any other breed. The less work the better.
 

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