Is this a good idea?

Help Support CattleToday:

Smertus

Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2004
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Location
NC Kansas
If you had a herd of purebread angus, raised your own replacements, primarily used AI, and your primary market was breading stock.

Would it be a good idea to bread your heifers to a low bw herferd bull? Sell the calfs as stocker or keep them... That way you see how she will perform and maybe increase her first year of production through hybrid vigor...

Has anyone done this or know about something similar?

If this is not a good idea, how does a first calf typically get maketed?

Don't hold back, if this is sounds terrible let me know... I can take it.
 

cherokeeruby

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Messages
1,161
Reaction score
0
Location
TEXAS of course
Personally I think that is a good idea. Lets you know how she will perform as a cow before you commit her to raising purebred stock. Seems like if the first calf doesn't impress you the rest won't either.
 

txshowmom

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2004
Messages
1,252
Reaction score
0
I think its a good idea too. That way you can see first hand how your cattle do and then market them that way. If you don't like how they turn out then your the only one that has to know. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
 

Frankie

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
6,915
Reaction score
0
Location
Oklahoma
Smertus":12dciryu said:
If you had a herd of purebread angus, raised your own replacements, primarily used AI, and your primary market was breading stock.

Would it be a good idea to bread your heifers to a low bw herferd bull? Sell the calfs as stocker or keep them... That way you see how she will perform and maybe increase her first year of production through hybrid vigor...

Has anyone done this or know about something similar?

If this is not a good idea, how does a first calf typically get maketed?

Don't hold back, if this is sounds terrible let me know... I can take it.

I wouldn't say this is a terrible idea, but you could be losing out on some good genetics by doing it. You shouldn't use the crossbred calf the heifer will raise as a guide for how a pure bred calf will grow because the crossbred calf will have the advantage of hybrid vigor.

We market our Angus private treaty or at purebred consignment sales. You don't say where you are so it's hard to recommend anything specific. There are many proven calving ease Angus bulls available through AI whose genetics are in demand. If the heifer has good gentics and is bred to a bull with good genetics, chances are she'll have a good calf, no matter if it's her first one. Heifers generally don't milk as well as cows, so the calf would wean off lighter, but with good genetics and proper management, it should grow.

If you should decide to go the crossbred route, consider some sort of speciality sale for any heifers you raise. Here in OK the state cattlemen's group sponsors a replacement female sale every fall. Heifers of known genetics are in great demand. If your state or region has a similar sale, it would be a good place to market any Angus/Hereford crossbred heifers. Good luck....
 

Texan

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
1,887
Reaction score
0
Location
East Texas
Smertus":2oli7qow said:
If you had a herd of purebread angus, raised your own replacements, primarily used AI, and your primary market was breading stock.

Would it be a good idea to bread your heifers to a low bw herferd bull?
I guess I don't understand what you have to gain. If you raise your own replacements from a purebred herd through the use of AI, the best genetics you have in your herd should be those of your first calf heifers. Why would you want to pass up a calf crop where you can continue to improve those genetics? Looks to me like you have more to lose than to gain. Course I'm not a registered breeder, either.......
 
OP
S

Smertus

Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2004
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Location
NC Kansas
Thanks for the input everyone!

Ok... Help me understand this... Still talking about purebred here. You bread your heifers to a low bw bull. I assume you bread you cows to something different.

Now, do you market the calves from the heifers the same as the calves from the cows?
 

PATB

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 30, 2003
Messages
183
Reaction score
0
Location
Turner Maine
We breed cows and heifers to the same AI bull if he has what we want to improve in the next generation. All calves not kept back as potential breeding stock are sold in the feeder calf sales. The first calf heifers have the potential to be some of your best genetics why waste in on some low birth weight calving ease bull? With the use of AI you can have your cake and eat to when it comes to selecting bulls to breed you herd to. Select a AI bull that complements your heifers genetics with a low to moderate birth weight with a high accuracy epds.
 

Frankie

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
6,915
Reaction score
0
Location
Oklahoma
Smertus":2qnaujdn said:
Thanks for the input everyone!

Ok... Help me understand this... Still talking about purebred here. You bread your heifers to a low bw bull. I assume you bread you cows to something different.

Now, do you market the calves from the heifers the same as the calves from the cows?

I always breed heifers to a low BW bull. But there are many proven low birthweight Angus bulls that produce calves well above average (for the Angus breed)for weaning and yearling weights.

Example: We first used an Angus bull, B/R New Design 036 as a heifer bull. But the calves were so good that we started using him on mature cows, too. He's proven to be a very dependable calving ease bull with sons that will gain on feed and that ultrasound desirable carcass qualities. And his daughters sell well, too. EXT is another bull that is safe to use on heifers, but can give you good replacement cows and feed efficient sons. If you pay attention, "calving ease" in the Angus breed doesn't mean sorry calves. Low birthweight Angus bulls are always in demand, too. Our ABS rep has been saying that bulls with low birthweight EPDs are getting more in demand as producers start rebuilding their cowherds across the country.

The Angus Assn. recommends using a bull with a BW EPD of less than 3 on first calf heifers. As I said, there are many of those around with good growth and carcass qualities.

Yes, we market our registered Angus heifers the same as our cows. We sell private treaty and have done better than we planned to this year. We also sell in some consignment sales. We belong to several regional Angus groups in OK and Texas and we are eligible to sell in their sales. We generally sell our heifers at sales as bred heifers or with their first calf at side. Some people sell weaned heifers. They get less money, of course, but they have less into them. And some groups may have rules about ages, breeding status, etc. that can be sold in their sales.

You still don't say where you are, but if you'll check with your state Angus Assn, they might be able to put you together with a regional assn in your area that has a sale.
 
OP
S

Smertus

Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2004
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
Location
NC Kansas
Frankie... I am in NC Kansas. Thanks for the detailed answer that was great. I don't have a herd now just trying to learn as much as I can before I get in to deep.
 

Frankie

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 24, 2003
Messages
6,915
Reaction score
0
Location
Oklahoma
Smertus":113m099i said:
Frankie... I am in NC Kansas. Thanks for the detailed answer that was great. I don't have a herd now just trying to learn as much as I can before I get in to deep.

From what I've read in the Journal, Kansas has a strong state Association. Check and see if they have a website. The Texas Angus Assn website has links to most of the regional assns in Texas. Oklahoma doesn't. There's a group called OK&T (Okla-Ks-Tx) that has a sale in the NW part of OK every year. That would possibly be too far for you to drive, though. Get out and find those regional associations and attend some sales. It might give you a better idea of what you're letting yourself in for. Also consider putting bulls on feed test. We test at OBI at Stillwater, OK, and that has been a good place to sell bulls, plus it gives our program, though small, credibility. Good luck....
 

BLACKPOWER

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2004
Messages
268
Reaction score
0
Location
NW Nebraska
Smertus":2glo9krn said:
If you had a herd of purebread angus, raised your own replacements, primarily used AI, and your primary market was breading stock.

Would it be a good idea to bread your heifers to a low bw herferd bull? Sell the calfs as stocker or keep them... That way you see how she will perform and maybe increase her first year of production through hybrid vigor...

Has anyone done this or know about something similar?

If this is not a good idea, how does a first calf typically get maketed?

Don't hold back, if this is sounds terrible let me know... I can take it.

White or Wheat Bread?
 

greenwillowherefords

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
1,621
Reaction score
0
Location
Oklahoma
Frankie is right, and it is true for more than just the Angus breed. PW Victor Boomer P606, a polled Hereford bull with reasonably high accuracies has a -4 BW EPD, while sporting a 102 YW EPD. His daughters are reputed to be great milkers.
 

TheBullLady

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2004
Messages
3,537
Reaction score
0
Location
Central Texas
We typically breed our first calf heifers AI to a low birth weight bull, and run a fairly low birthweight, but more importantly, easy calving bull on the mature cows. By the time the females are on their second calf, I'd like them to add about 10 lbs of birth weight to their calves.

There seems to be a opinion that a first calf is inferior to the subsequent calves, but I've not noticed that on my cattle. Anyone else?
 

ollie

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Messages
984
Reaction score
0
I breed my heifers to any bull I choose and I don't care if it is a (low birthweight bull). Almost never any problems and if there is I pull them and ship the heifer. In my opinion heifers need every chance they can get to raise a good calf. If they can't get rid of them.
 

greenwillowherefords

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
1,621
Reaction score
0
Location
Oklahoma
TheBullLady":2g1f7xaj said:
We typically breed our first calf heifers AI to a low birth weight bull, and run a fairly low birthweight, but more importantly, easy calving bull on the mature cows. By the time the females are on their second calf, I'd like them to add about 10 lbs of birth weight to their calves.

There seems to be a opinion that a first calf is inferior to the subsequent calves, but I've not noticed that on my cattle. Anyone else?
I've had a first calf make a better bull than a sixth or seventh calf. Genetic combos are genetic combos.
A former Genex employee told me that if you breed to a bull that is breed average or under BW EPD, you should be safe, and if not the heifer needs to go. I've had good luck with that philosophy, but you might take differences in breed averages into consideration when cross-breeding. The official difference between Angus and Hereford is 3.3 lbs. according to my Genex catalog, Angus being the lighter.
 

txag

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 23, 2003
Messages
1,712
Reaction score
0
Location
Texas
greenwillowherefords":3ul8x6tx said:
A former Genex employee told me that if you breed to a bull that is breed average or under BW EPD, you should be safe, and if not the heifer needs to go. I've had good luck with that philosophy, but you might take differences in breed averages into consideration when cross-breeding.

you should also take accuracies into consideration. i know of one hereford bull in particular whose bw epd jumped about 10 points when his calves & sons' calves started hitting the ground.
 

greenwillowherefords

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
1,621
Reaction score
0
Location
Oklahoma
txag":1jzb3t7k said:
greenwillowherefords":1jzb3t7k said:
A former Genex employee told me that if you breed to a bull that is breed average or under BW EPD, you should be safe, and if not the heifer needs to go. I've had good luck with that philosophy, but you might take differences in breed averages into consideration when cross-breeding.

you should also take accuracies into consideration. i know of one hereford bull in particular whose bw epd jumped about 10 points when his calves & sons' calves started hitting the ground.
EXCELLENT POINT
 

OldTex

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 14, 2004
Messages
68
Reaction score
0
Location
SOUTH CENTRAL USA
txag":blsw3zwl said:
you should also take accuracies into consideration. i know of one hereford bull in particular whose bw epd jumped about 10 points when his calves & sons' calves started hitting the ground.
Accuracies is the first thing that I look for when looking for a certain trait.
I like accuricies to be in the mid to high 90's.
 

dun

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 28, 2003
Messages
47,334
Reaction score
6
Location
MO Ozarks
TheBullLady":16eymdct said:
We typically breed our first calf heifers AI to a low birth weight bull, and run a fairly low birthweight, but more importantly, easy calving bull on the mature cows. By the time the females are on their second calf, I'd like them to add about 10 lbs of birth weight to their calves.

There seems to be a opinion that a first calf is inferior to the subsequent calves, but I've not noticed that on my cattle. Anyone else?

All things being equal, which the seldom are, a heifer will wean a litghter calf then a mature cow. That's strictly a matter of milk supply. But by the time a heifers calf is 2 years old it will be so close if not the same to a mature cows calf that you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference. If you look at any of the bull studs you will find that a significant number of the bulls are our of heifers.
If you go with an easy calving bull that still has good growth, carcass and daughters calving ease traits, why would her calf be inferior?

dun
 
Top