Is frame getting too moderate?

[Brandonm2]

Boys the money is in the feed conversion. If you have a decent frame on a calf that convert feed to meat youve got a money maker. With feed being the single largest expense.

That is great IF I am not stuck feeding a cow who weighs 1600 pounds showing all of her ribs 12 months out of the year while chomping down range cubes and bushels of corn on the cob. That calf leaves here at 7-8 months of age and I never see him again. His hard keeping momma I have to live with. Give me a 1000-1100 pound 5 frame score cow who weans a 600 pound 5 frame score calf every 12 months without putting her on year round grain supplementation and then I have got a real money maker.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

I'm with Jake on this one.

Your location has a lot to do with what size your cows should be.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

LOCATION - LOCATION -LOCATION - That is the key. Just because in your area you may need to FEED grain to a larger cow - does not mean EVERYONE has to.
I run mature cows ranging 52" - 56" - 1350#- 1650# and they NEVER see grain (after their first breeding as a yearling heifer). Calves are not creep fed, wean off at least 50% of their dams weight. Feedlot loves them.
It would be a total waste of our land to run 3-4 frame cows. Our grass is too good to be raising small cows - they would be butterballs.
Difference of LOCATION.
Also, big does not mean inefficient.

 

[Jake]

Could you explain that Jake, how could he be eating you out of house and home and still be more efficient?

He said "DECENT" frame. Remember, it takes 1.8 times the energy to put on a lb of fat than it does lean muscle. Those "decent" framed cattle won't have as much backfat, thus metabolizing energy better.

On all the bull tests at Auburn I have participated in, I have never seen a Frame 4-5 bull convert feed as well as a 6-7.
When the choice/select spread is down around $5, the money is in a Yield grade 1 and a 850 lb. carcass. Try getting that consistently from a Frame 4-5.

J&T is right, "Cost of Gain" can save your butt or lose it.

We're talkin about moderate frame. Moderate frame by most every definition out there is a 5-6 frame animal. I have yet to come across a calf with moderate frame that doesn't out perform it's counterpart large framed animal. I have no scientific data, cannot quote bull tests, just experience with feeding them. The larger framed animals will ALMOST always eat more than the more moderate framed calf while having equivilent ROG. So just by using logic here... same ROG with the larger animal eating even slightly more would appear to me that the moderate calf is making you more money. The moderate calves will be able to put on the pounds squaring the calf up a lot easier than a large framed animal because the area in which to put the meat woud be unscientificly stated as "more spread." Just my simple logic and past experience I don't know how a moderate calf will not give you more profit in the lot especially when they will most like'y have the desired finish sooner also there for being off of feed quicker.

 

[ollie']

The whole thread is a one dimensional discussion. Frame is should be much skeletal mass the animal can hang meat on. Those flat made 6 or 7 frame animals or even 5 frame as far as that goes are money loosers for me. Those deep, wide and long ones of any size suit me fine. If you really want 1000 pound cows, you are going to have to go down to a 3 frame cow to make a cow with enough room and length to suit me . I don't want them that small. I like my cows 1400 to 1500 lbs. I just don't want flat made 8 frames that weigh that. 5.5 to 6.5 I guess would be around what I am looking for in cows. That frame puts them weighing around 1450 if they are deep enough and long enough and wide enough for me. For consistancy sake if you are keeping replacements I want my bulls the same size as my cows.

 

[dun]

The whole thread is a one dimensional discussion. Frame is should be much skeletal mass the animal can hang meat on. Those flat made 6 or 7 frame animals or even 5 frame as far as that goes are money loosers for me. Those deep, wide and long ones of any size suit me fine. If you really want 1000 pound cows, you are going to have to go down to a 3 frame cow to make a cow with enough room and length to suit me . I don't want them that small. I like my cows 1400 to 1500 lbs. I just don't want flat made 8 frames that weigh that. 5.5 to 6.5 I guess would be around what I am looking for in cows. That frame puts them weighing around 1450 if they are deep enough and long enough and wide enough for me. For consistancy sake if you are keeping replacements I want my bulls the same size as my cows.

That's the problem with the whole FS measurement chart. We have one old girl that would be stretching it to be a 4.5 and weighs 1350, another that's a 6.5 and weighs 1474. They're both money makers but there isn;t much difference in their calves weaning weights but the squatty cows calves finsih faster.

dun

 

[Brandonm2]

LOCATION - LOCATION -LOCATION - That is the key. Just because in your area you may need to FEED grain to a larger cow - does not mean EVERYONE has to.
I run mature cows ranging 52" - 56" - 1350#- 1650# and they NEVER see grain (after their first breeding as a yearling heifer). Calves are not creep fed, wean off at least 50% of their dams weight. Feedlot loves them.
It would be a total waste of our land to run 3-4 frame cows. Our grass is too good to be raising small cows - they would be butterballs.
Difference of LOCATION.
Also, big does not mean inefficient.

Big does not necessarily "always" mean inefficient; but it always means higher cow maintenance costs. I was not advocating 3 frame cattle. Too stay that lite you are going to get too many market docks for dinky cattle, frame score 3 heifers will have more calving problems (generally), and weaning wts are not going to be very desirable especially if you were breeding them to 3 score bulls. I think I have said repeatedly that moderation ie 4-6 frame cattle is more ideal. Though even in your lush conditions you could run more moderate or small frame cattle on the same forage than you can your big cattle. We are not all selling to the same market. I am talking strictly about a cow calf operation that sells to the stockyard, with sometimes less than perfect forage conditions while still trying to keep input costs at a minimum. We need somebody out there producing the 7-8 frame bull mommas to produce meat sires. You and Mike are selling to meet the needs of YOUR bull buyers. People who are selling 5 (and even 4) frame Angus, Charolais, and Simmental bulls are selling to their bull buyers who apparently put a premium on moderate frame easy keeping replacement females. As long as you are making money, do what you are doing.

 

[J&T Farm]

My cows are only 11-1300# and if they can raise a calf about half of their weight every 12 months then Im satisfied because I sell as weanlings anyway. If a 15-1600 cow only raises a 5-600#er once a year then shes not making any more money, just eating alot more grass.

 

[BRG]

This is an article that I found and put in my newsletter that I send out to my customers.

The Value Of Feeder Cattle Traits

Frame size and muscling.
As we all sit and watch feeder calf sales, whether it be at the barn or Superior, we can observe the preference of feeder cattle buyers for heavily muscled cattle with medium to larger frame scores. Light to medium-muscled and small framed feeder cattle are routinely discounted by buyers.

KSU and OSU research found that cattle classified as light muscled were severely discounted, compared to heavier-muscled cattle. Medium to large-framed cattle, on the other hand, bring significantly higher prices than small-framed cattle. Feeder cattle buyers perceive that medium to larger framed cattle have more growth potential and are less likely to incur packer discounts due to small carcass size and a higher number of yield grade 3’s and 4’s.

Data suggests the discount for small- vs. medium/large-framed cattle is increasing. Discounts for small-framed feeder steers in Kansas vs. medium/large-framed feeder steers increased from $5/cwt. in the 1980s to $9/cwt. in the '90s. In two KSU studies, lightweight, small-framed steers were discounted $10-$11/cwt. By the late 1990s, OSU data found average discounts for lightweight, small-framed steers as large as $19/cwt.

As the historical price differences point out, the market demands medium- to large-frame feeder calves which are well-muscled. Between the medium and large-frame calves, there is little price premium for large-frame calves (very-large-frame calves actually draw discounts due to heavy carcasses). Thus, there is no incentive to increase frame size above the medium level. However, the large discounts for small-frame animals suggest that breeding programs to increase frame to the medium/large score will be more profitable.
(Medium to large frame is the 6 to 7 frames scores. anything bigger is considered to big by these studies.)

 

[mtnman]

If we pay attention to detail, and actually weigh and frmae score the cows as they are growing, say yearling, preg-check time, and again at age 2 1/2, then we can selct for smaller frame and extra weight.

I've seen frame 4.5 steers finish at 1360 at 11.5 months, with 90% choice and 85% 1's and 2's.

The way you do it is crank down the frame and crank up the weight all while keeping the REA in them.

When they are dead before their momma has another calf, you can let her have the little more feed it takes, hell, you cut two months or more off of his life,a nd saved all that money in maintenance for the calf.

If I have to spend a little more to have a cow that can return a product like that, I will. A little more, is key here, not a lot more.


mtnman

 

[Scotty]

It boils down to what makes you money. Box beef trays are still in use. Bigger frame, bigger cuts. Mom is still going to buy only what she needs to feed her family. Grow them as bigg as you want. This is the reason i got rid of my 1300 lbs Brangus cows. They eat just as much as the 1100 lbs Angus and produce the same marketable calf. Only ate more. That convertion. 600 dolar calf and 100 to feed the cow and 600 dollar calf and 120 to feed the cow.



Scotty

 

[BRG]

It doesn't always work that way. A customer of mine sold 800 lbs steers this January and got around $800, then the same day he sold the heavies which were 1000lbs steers and they brought right at $1000. Thats $200 you leave on the table. That proves to me that more performance will give you more $.

 

[Wewild]

It doesn't always work that way. A customer of mine sold 800 lbs steers this January and got around $800, then the same day he sold the heavies which were 1000lbs steers and they brought right at $1000. Thats $200 you leave on the table. That proves to me that more performance will give you more $.

Got any more details? I ain't never seen it work this way.

 

[BRG]

It isn't that uncommon up here that last few years for the cattle to bring about the same $ per lbs when the weights get 700lbs or higher. ( I am talking feeder cattle.)

 

[Wewild]

It isn't that uncommon up here that last few years for the cattle to bring about the same $ per lbs when the weights get 700lbs or higher. ( I am talking feeder cattle.)

I figured the feeder part. Got any data? I like to see it. Got a reason why?

 

[Scotty]

It doesn't always work that way. A customer of mine sold 800 lbs steers this January and got around $800, then the same day he sold the heavies which were 1000lbs steers and they brought right at $1000. Thats $200 you leave on the table. That proves to me that more performance will give you more $.

I thought we were talking cows and bulls and their frame scores. If I am worng sorry. But if I am right...


Scotty

 

[BRG]

Well, we were talking cows and bull, but I just took it a step further

 

[showme]

The thing is I raise for the show ring. I hardly ever see a small calf win champion. Now a small cow can make a great cow camp cooley proved that. But small cows cant compete. Its always moderate to big cows who win. In brangus breed if you go to houston with a small calf you wont do very good because on the side of you there is a growther heifer with just as much are more thickness. Size is a important thing!! When you walk you to a class most of the time people see size before anything else. Small cows are easier to keep up big cows tend to melt down but with plenty of grass, hay and some feed they will be fine. Just my opoion and from what i have done and learned in the passed.

 

[Wewild]

Well, we were talking cows and bull, but I just took it a step further

After 3 pages it will get sideways. What about my post? I'm intrested.

 

[BRG]

Don't really have any data or reason why, except that the market boards play a huge role in the prices and we don't have not much of a difference in feeder calf prices right now from Sept. to Nov. $1.13 to $1.15. and from Oct. to April in the Live cattle markets they are identicle. If they can lock in a profit they will do it.