Ideal Frame Score?

[cotton1]

I have been thinking about frame score lately and a mature weight for my cattle. I was wondering what other breeders think is ideal. I have been thinking frame 6-6.5 with grown mamas in the 1250-1400lb range. I used to think 1100lbs was enough cow. It seems the cattle today are larger in general in all the breeds. Im not sure if its that or not too long ago most folks didnt weigh anything until it went across the auction block,nothing on farm.I want to produce a smaller more effecient cow going forward. Some of my first attempts have been successfull giving me 3 year olds that are just at 5.9/6.0 frame and are in the 1250lb range.They weaned their first calves at 5.7-6.1fs and 635-699 weights. I read a thread on here about a bull that was maybe producing frame 4 offspring, I think Angus.Just curious what others think. I am a Charolais producer and I think frame 6 and 1300lb. looking forward to what others in the commercial and different registered breeds think work. Maybe I need to change my mind to suit the commercial sector?

 

[WalnutCrest]

What is your end market and what is your preferred management style? Get animals that will allow you to make good money, over a long period of time, paying attention to both questions.

Personally, I'm a grass-only guy and find that any cow over 1400lbs in my management style (at a frame of 5.5 or so) will melt. I need shorter animals more than I need lighter animals; short (height), wide and deep will work quite well for what I'm trying to do.

This cow was about 1400-1450lbs but was a frame 5.

For me, frame 4.5 - 5.5 is a good range of height for me. Weights on mature cows should (for me) be in the range of 1200 - 1400, with possibly a little more variation on the lighter side than the heavier side (i.e., I'm more likely to have a 1000lb cow than a 1600lb cow).

 

[dun]

I like 5.5-6.0 and a mature weight around 1400. It's worked well for us through the years. In the desert where the stocking rate ran 300 acres per pair we wanted all the leg we could get. Water holes where a couple of miles aparts. With the more leg (and Brahman influence) the cows traverled further from a given water hole to graze.

 

[Nesikep]

Everything plays a factor into what cow will work for you... typically the lusher the grazing the bigger a cow, to an extent.. other factors come into play too, like how much milk is enough, and how much is too much, heat, cold, etc

I'm aiming for a FS 5-6 with 1300-1500 lb mature weight and good milk, I have a few that fit the bill nicely, and am working toward increasing the percentage of 'ideal' cows.. I had one 4 year old cow this year that's about a frame 5, 1300 lb that grew a ~650lb steer in just 170 days.. I want more of them!

 

[WalnutCrest]

Environment and management do play an enormous role in the expression of adult size.

Hold a heifer open to calve for the first time as a 3yr old instead of a 2yr old ...

Feed creep vs. withholding creep.

...etc...

 

[dun]

Everything plays a factor into what cow will work for you... typically the lusher the grazing the bigger a cow, to an extent.. other factors come into play too, like how much milk is enough, and how much is too much, heat, cold, etc

I'm aiming for a FS 5-6 with 1300-1500 lb mature weight and good milk, I have a few that fit the bill nicely, and am working toward increasing the percentage of 'ideal' cows.. I had one 4 year old cow this year that's about a frame 5, 1300 lb that grew a ~650lb steer in just 170 days.. I want more of them!

Then there are the outliers. Granny in her prime was a 1700 lb frame 5 cow that alwasy weaned one of the heaviest calves. She was darn near as wide as she was tall. Our bull fit in our old chute but Granny's hips hung up trying to get in. Her daughters are built a lot like her but a bit more leg and not as extreme width, but still PLENTY wide in the shoulders and hips.

 

[Dubcharo]

For the short future and since a year or two we like animals with a frame near 7. The demand is good for bigger carcass. Our purebred charolais cows weight 1600-1800 they are winter on corn silage and free choice hay. We have plenty of pasture all summer. A bigger bull on smaller cows is the way to go, we need to produce those bulls with bigger cows but a commercial breeder must not thing like that.

 

[cotton1]

Dubachero, I am wanting to make smaller more effecient cows. My herd has been mostly 7-7.5 fs cows that are 1600-2000lbs. About 4 years ago I AI bred a few cows to a smaller bull. The cows from that mating are now mature and fixin to drop their 2nd babys in Jan. I weighed them recently and found they were 1270-1290lbs, and they are 5.7-5.9 fs. Their calves were just as good if not better, weaning in the high 6 weight range. I liked that move and since making this post have found a lot of commercial breeders, and seedstock producers of other breeds are in the 5-6fs with 12-1400lb weights. It seems if I cant offer that type of replacement stock to the commercial sector I am putting myself at a disadvantage. Not to mention the overall advantage of running smaller cows that require less inputs but will produce as much weaning weight as the larger cows. I understand what you are saying about the 7-7.5s fs though with the carcass volume. My new bull is fs 6.1, and I hope to level off in that area over the next few years.I still think there will be enough frame there to offer an option to somebody with mama cows in the 5-5.5 range looking for a little bit more from their calves,but still be close, not so much of a jump. The only bull I can think of that might make smaller Charolais is Bluegrass. My bull is a Bluegrass grandson, by Ledger. I have some embryos off a very old bull that might fit the bill too, when the day comes to get calfs out of them. Thanks all, Cotton1

 

[Supa Dexta]

He's also in Canada, where everything tends to be bigger. From calves, cows, fats..

 

[Dubcharo]

We have 3 bluegrass daugthers and I find them a bit small.

 

[Dubcharo]

In the first picture the cow number 5 from the left is a bluegrass.

The bulls just after weaning.

 

[cotton1]

I can see the difference on the Bluegrass in the picture. I am glad you are confirming what I thought about the Bluegrass blood line. I have a flush coming next friday, November 27 out of Bluegrass. The donor is a really big 914 daughter who is Grid Maker/Western Spur on Bottom and a cow that is famous named JWK Vanessa D029. I hope the Bluegrass will bring down frame score and moderate size enough to make a replacement for my current bull, the Ledger son. I am going to be doing more line breeding closer in the pedigree moving forward, and Bluegrass lines are part of the plan. The Bluegrass and Ledger bulls do not have frame score data on their pedigree info at AICA.I wish that was not the case. I am pleased with the weight of my Ledger son after weighing him today. He will be 2 years old in 7 days and is just 1500lbs and in great shape. I am hoping he will mature in the 1700 lbs or less range,but expect a little more really. He is fs 6.1, and super gentle.Thanks for the info Dubachero, nice looking cattle in the pictures.