idea

[tapeworm]

I was reading the posting about creep feeders..is it true that some of em cost over 3 grand?? And some of you actuall buy em?? Heres an idea for some of you peopel...if your cow wont do her job get rid of her sorry tail and spend your money on better cows instead of feeders and feed
Hear me out...this is not like doing open heart surgery..its really pretty simple...keep some money for yourself....your supporting a cow anyhow...now you want to do that and do her job for her to??


I dont like welfare people and I dont have any use for a welfare cow either. Raising calves is a cows job..your already paying her..no use in supporting a cow and the feed man to. A cow ought to be a profit center...not a bottomless hole to chunk money in

 

[jnowack]

I get your point and I don't tolerate cows that don't do their job.
However, I quit creep feeding for a couple years and did not see much difference in weaning weight but weaning time was a lot harder on the calves because they were not used to eating feed. We had more sick ones and it hurt the yearling weights on our bulls because they didn't gain much the first couple weeks post weaning. Now I creep the early fall calves pretty heavy. After I turn the cows out on grass in the spring I quit creeping until about 30 days before I get ready to wean a group just to get them started.

 

[Bama]

I agree with tape. Cow's job is raising calves. However I buy some lightweight ones with no momma. For these I use a creep feeder I built myself. Well I normally use one, I am in the process of building a new one. I'm redoing some corrals and have torn the old one down. In one of the holding pens I have a lean to on the end of a barn. This lean to is used as a creep feeder. I have ( will have ) an adjustable bar that will only let the ones in I want. If I have a lot of lightweights they are kelp seperate from the others and use the regular bunks. Fastest way to make money is to get them out of the bunks and on the grass.

 

[S.R.R.]

Good idea!

 

[dun]

Short term (we alwasy hope they're short) drought conditions might justify creep feeding calves. There are folks that feel creeping them is a way to get extra dollars since feed is cheap and cost of gain is less then sold prices.

dun

 

[jcarkie]

i don't creep feed either but when the calves get older i start feeding them seperate from the cows. in a small pen where i can shut the gate on them. it gets them use to eating and being seperate from the cows for a while each day.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I find it interesting how people swing that righteous paint brush around without actually giving thought to environments other than their own. I've never creep fed my calves before, however this year I'm definitely going to, at least on my commercials. My cows are doing their jobs, I think, since they wean close to half their weight in calves after 5 months. But most people in the area have gained close to 100 lbs weaning weight with the addition of creep feed. Since we're wet up here, our summer grass doesn't have alot of value in it. Creep feeding eases the stress on the cow, stress on the calves, makes weaning easier, and pencils out (about 30 bucks worth of oats for 100 extra pounds).

Rod

 

[randiliana]

I find it interesting how people swing that righteous paint brush around without actually giving thought to environments other than their own. I've never creep fed my calves before, however this year I'm definitely going to, at least on my commercials. My cows are doing their jobs, I think, since they wean close to half their weight in calves after 5 months. But most people in the area have gained close to 100 lbs weaning weight with the addition of creep feed. Since we're wet up here, our summer grass doesn't have alot of value in it. Creep feeding eases the stress on the cow, stress on the calves, makes weaning easier, and pencils out (about 30 bucks worth of oats for 100 extra pounds).

Rod

That is the truth Rod, when you are telling someone what you think should be done, you should be considering what the environmetal differences are between you and that person!! It is like telling those of us in the northern US and Canada that we should not be feeding cattle in the winter, it just won't work for us, we would likely have starved cattle!! As well, saying "don't creepfeed" is very similar to saying "don't implant or deworm" after all all 3 of those practices (are supposed to) help a calf to gain "more " weight than the cow would have done by herself!

We have creepfed our calves before, and while it doesn't make the cow any better of a cow, if you can put $30 into a calf and get $100+ out of it why not go for it!! We run the majority of our cattle on Crested Wheat and by the first of August that stuff is pretty much dried out, by creepfeeding you can ease the load on the cow (especially heifers) and add weight to the calf, as well as ease the load on the pasture.

 

[S.R.R.]

(about 30 bucks worth of oats for 100 extra pounds).
Rod

Sorry but I find this nearly impossible to believe! What are you paying for oats? What kind of cattle are you running? How many lb. of oats do you think you need to add 100lb per calf? I am afraid you are in for a rude awakening but hope for your sake I am wrong. Best of luck!

P.S. Just saw that you raise shorthorns. (nice beef cattle in their day) I find it a bit confusing that a breed like that which is known for above average milk production for a beef cow has such a hard time giving enough milk for its calf. Do you think there is the possibility that your cows are not getting the nutrition they need and not the calves? Just a thought not trying to knock you.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

whats harder for me too understand is that kind of gain on oats alone. but i would figure in canada oats would be cheaper

 

[WORANCH]

I find it interesting how people swing that righteous paint brush around without actually giving thought to environments other than their own. I've never creep fed my calves before, however this year I'm definitely going to, at least on my commercials. My cows are doing their jobs, I think, since they wean close to half their weight in calves after 5 months. But most people in the area have gained close to 100 lbs weaning weight with the addition of creep feed. Since we're wet up here, our summer grass doesn't have alot of value in it. Creep feeding eases the stress on the cow, stress on the calves, makes weaning easier, and pencils out (about 30 bucks worth of oats for 100 extra pounds).

Rod

I don't know if creep feeding will ease stress on your cows . Calves are going to eat in this order.

1. Milk
2. Feed
3. Grass

It might give the cattle alittle more grass , but if your grazing that close you may be over stocked.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

1) Sorry but I find this nearly impossible to believe! What are you paying for oats? What kind of cattle are you running? How many lb. of oats do you think you need to add 100lb per calf? I am afraid you are in for a rude awakening but hope for your sake I am wrong. Best of luck!

2) P.S. Just saw that you raise shorthorns. (nice beef cattle in their day) I find it a bit confusing that a breed like that which is known for above average milk production for a beef cow has such a hard time giving enough milk for its calf. Do you think there is the possibility that your cows are not getting the nutrition they need and not the calves? Just a thought not trying to knock you.

1) Low quality bin run oats with alot of wild oats can be had today for 55 cents/bushel. The elevators won't buy it and the farmers just want to get it gone. Wild oats has excellent nutritional value. And no rude awakenings. My decision to creep feed is based on surveying the countryside to see what kind of consumption they're going through versus the weight gains, then adjusting back to my animals. The large framed Simm guys in the area are getting 150 extra pounds in 7 months with creep feed. Its also based on my work with other ranches who did use creep. Perhaps I won't get my 100 pound target in 5 months, but I won't be far off, given the other British guys in the area are getting in that neighborhood. As I said in the other thread, I won't know for sure until I try it myself on my own animals.

2) Well I think my cows are doing just fine. I'm weaning 50% of cow weight in 5 months on average frame sized cows. That above average weaning weight for the Shorthorn breed. As far as the cows not getting adequate nutrition, they can raise that 50% of their weight and end up dropping very little shape (during the wet days of June/July they'll drop a little condition, but gain back in August/September). I feed a free choice mineral, balanced out for the grass (or hay depending on the year).

My feedlot performance, once the weaning shock is gone, is better than my performance on the cows (.5 to 1 pound per day better performance in the lot, and I don't heavy feed). If I can eliminate, or at least reduce weaning shock to nil, I'm going to get a 2 - 4 weeks more good growth, versus having 2 - 4 weeks with no growth, or little growth.

Rod

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I don't know if creep feeding will ease stress on your cows . Calves are going to eat in this order.

1. Milk
2. Feed
3. Grass

WO, calves will eat in that order when young, but they won't fill completely up on milk and ignore everything else. So if they only east 10% feed, thats that much less milk the cow needs to produce. She can put more into her own upkeep.

And as they get older, they'll head to the feed bucket/grass more and more to the point where more than 50% of their diet will be feed bucket and grass.

Rod

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

whats harder for me too understand is that kind of gain on oats alone. but i would figure in canada oats would be cheaper

One of the challenges we have in this area is energy. Our grass and hay is typically low in energy, while being good is most other areas. Grains are high energy, so its just part of a balanced diet, nothing more. Remember, I'm in North-east Saskatchewan and we're prone to big swings in temperature. We can have a 90F day and drop to 45F at night, especially in the fall. Anything you can give an animal to help regulate its body heat will help. Heck, I keep straw out year round.

Rod

 

[ALACOWMAN]

whats harder for me too understand is that kind of gain on oats alone. but i would figure in canada oats would be cheaper

One of the challenges we have in this area is energy. Our grass and hay is typically low in energy, while being good is most other areas. Grains are high energy, so its just part of a balanced diet, nothing more. Remember, I'm in North-east Saskatchewan and we're prone to big swings in temperature. We can have a 90F day and drop to 45F at night, especially in the fall. Anything you can give an animal to help regulate its body heat will help. Heck, I keep straw out year round.

Rod

like you said before -AREA -i dont like too comment much too someone thousands of miles where im at. in my area corn fits the bill i would have too float a loan to get them to gain on oats alone as far a energy and weight gain along with a few other grains ;-)

 

[WORANCH]

I don't know if creep feeding will ease stress on your cows . Calves are going to eat in this order.

1. Milk
2. Feed
3. Grass

WO, calves will eat in that order when young, but they won't fill completely up on milk and ignore everything else. So if they only east 10% feed, thats that much less milk the cow needs to produce. She can put more into her own upkeep.

And as they get older, they'll head to the feed bucket/grass more and more to the point where more than 50% of their diet will be feed bucket and grass.

Rod

Calves are going to suck first , They may get 50% of their diet from grass or feed . But they will suck that cow down first.

 

[randiliana]

like you said before -AREA -i dont like too comment much too someone thousands of miles where im at. in my area corn fits the bill i would have too float a loan to get them to gain on oats alone as far a energy and weight gain along with a few other grains ;-)

The problem with Corn or Barley, or other HOT feeds is that they can put too much fat on the calf. The oats is lower in energy, and seems to encourage them to put more growth into their frame, and less as added FAT. Even oats can be too hot for smaller framed animals, and we saw some of our smaller framed calves just turn into butterballs. IMO, creepfeeding can work on larger, framier cattle with length, but (at least if you sell at weaning) it may not be the best choice for smaller framed cattle with less length. The problem with the little butterballs, is that the buyers (in this area at least) do not want that type of cattle.

As well, I read a study once that suggested that you chouldn't creepfeed heifers that you are planning to keep for replacements. Because they would often store the extra fat in their udder, which lead to decreased milk production when they calved later on.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Calves are going to suck first , They may get 50% of their diet from grass or feed . But they will suck that cow down first.

I understand what you're trying to say WORanch, but a calf on creep won't go to the cow as often. I've watched 4 weight calves on creep feed wake up from a snooze, look around, and head straight to the creep feeder. Maybe they won't do it everytime, but they'll still do it enough that the cow doesn't need to milk as heavy. A calf can only eat so much in a day. If 50% of that is grass/oats and 50% milk, its much less than 20% grass/80% milk. Its far more efficient to stick feed straight into the calf rather than stuff it into momma, then into a calf.

Rod

 

[WORANCH]

Calves are going to suck first , They may get 50% of their diet from grass or feed . But they will suck that cow down first.

I understand what you're trying to say WORanch, but a calf on creep won't go to the cow as often. I've watched 4 weight calves on creep feed wake up from a snooze, look around, and head straight to the creep feeder. Maybe they won't do it everytime, but they'll still do it enough that the cow doesn't need to milk as heavy. A calf can only eat so much in a day. If 50% of that is grass/oats and 50% milk, its much less than 20% grass/80% milk. Its far more efficient to stick feed straight into the calf rather than stuff it into momma, then into a calf.

Rod

Put some cows in your lot with a creep feeder ,wait 7-8 hours and turn the calves in .See if they eat feed or suck milk.

I don't think they will stop sucking when they're 50% full and go to feed. When the the cows are milked out then they will eat feed.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Put some cows in your lot with a creep feeder ,wait 7-8 hours and turn the calves in .See if they eat feed or suck milk.

I don't think they will stop sucking when they're 50% full and go to feed. When the the cows are milked out then they will eat feed.

Thats not a real test WO, as the calves held back from their mommas are going to rush to their mothers side. As I said, I've worked ranches with creep fed calves before. I've watched calves who are hungry go to whichever feed source is closest, whether that be momma or the creep feeder. A calf will drain a bag X number of times in a day (unless she's an extreme milker like a holstein). And I'm not talking about a calf eating until 50% full then leaving. Of course he'll stay until either full or the bag is drained. Then he'll bugger off and go play or grab a snooze, and a couple hours later, maybe he'll go have a snack at the feeder instead of momma. You're still reducing his milk consumption, and that still makes it easier on the dam.

Even if you can cut that drain by 1 teetful, you're allowing that cow to utilize just a little more of her grass intake for her own upkeep.

Another good indication is the grass. Cow/calf pairs with creep will take grass down slower than cow/calf pairs with no creep.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried to creep feed your calves and really watched your cows? Tried to measure their grass consumption? Watched the behaviour of the calves?

I see you're from Arizona. Perhaps maybe on wide open ranges the calves won't even look at the creep feeders, but in my neck of the woods, a 50 acre pasture is a pretty good size that'll keep 50 pairs in grass for 3 months. With calves always being in relative close proximity to the creep feeder, they'll occasionally head to creep before momma.

We can probably debate this until we're blue in the face, and niether of us will give. When the summer grazing season is over, I'll post my results on here, including cow condition scores throughout each month. I'm also going to keep track of the number of days each pasture holds out. And since I'll have some calves not on creep, I'll have a control group to compare back to for ADG.

Rod