For what? Ivomec is not a vaccine
I think it’s an inbreeding problem
- Thread starter Chapin81
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Lucky_P
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4th and 5th abortion this year?
Over what time period? Are we talking over the last month or so, or spread out over the entire 12 month period?
How many cows in the herd? If you only have 20, that's a big hit... if you have 1000, 4 or 5 is not necessarily out of line.
Have you had any diagnostic testing performed on any of them? I'd want to rule out infectious/toxic causes of abortion before I started chasing some nebulous 'inbreeding' issue.
The fetus with the 'deformed' head looks to have had a meningocele and cheiloschisis(cleft lip) - both of which are congenital defects, but not heritable.
Over what time period? Are we talking over the last month or so, or spread out over the entire 12 month period?
How many cows in the herd? If you only have 20, that's a big hit... if you have 1000, 4 or 5 is not necessarily out of line.
Have you had any diagnostic testing performed on any of them? I'd want to rule out infectious/toxic causes of abortion before I started chasing some nebulous 'inbreeding' issue.
The fetus with the 'deformed' head looks to have had a meningocele and cheiloschisis(cleft lip) - both of which are congenital defects, but not heritable.
Mgutzwiler
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When that happens in this area - north central Washington - its either a poisonous weed that has shown up or they consumed pine needles. But you've got a lot of good advice from others here.
OP
OP
Chapin81
Well-known member
It's not but that's when we do it down there 2x a year. However this year I'm stopping I have no presence of dung beetles our land is probably shot.
Silver
Well-known member
I think the question gcreek was asking is what vaccines did you give them?
Is there a chance you gave a modified live to cows that were not on a modified live vaccine program?
edit: or were nursing calves given a modified live vaccine who's mothers had not been on a mlv program?
Is there a chance you gave a modified live to cows that were not on a modified live vaccine program?
edit: or were nursing calves given a modified live vaccine who's mothers had not been on a mlv program?
OP
OP
Chapin81
Well-known member
The abortions are over a 12 month period. Between both herds it's 240 cows/heifers/calf's and steers. The herd that's producing this is the older herd. The daughters from the older herd have not produced this problem then again only five calf's that have been born from that herd so far with one dying 3 days later(calf was 25lbs) . The land/weeds/grasses are the same. We haven't done any testing, then again I'm in the middle of nowhere. I'm thinking I'm just going to sell those cows and hopefully the new sires don't present this problem. I am however going to look for a laboratory down there and see if its because the cow ate something she wasn't supposed to but I really doubt it.
found this online
btw thanks for sharing your thoughts
Or no vaccination program at all and they picked up a bug from somewhere. This person beating around the bush a lot for having direct questions put their way from those of us who would like to help.
Oh well............
Maybe Multimin or some such is a vaccine now.......
Lee VanRoss
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Chapin- This may be a shot in the dark. Are you aquainted with the locals down there enough to find out if you have, Ruda, cola de qurraquincho,
parsley, carachysita, or Cedron? If not any of those there may be other plant variants that can contribute to your problem. Dog feces can also contribute
to the problem and that includes healty dogs. Also the area is warm and moist (i think?!) fungus growing around any feed run off or sludge can be a
factor. This is not meant to be either an insult or funny but would you drink the water the cattle drink.? ( I don't either but they still should have a clean
source!} Lepto may have been mentioned already. All this aside I am compelled to ask are you the hands on manager or does that responsibilty rest
elsewhere? I would pray you are boots on the ground as it will be easier for you to bring this to a successful conclusion sooner than if you are not.
I can attest you are receiving some good ideas from cattle people on this forum based on the information you have given. It is quite possible you may not
be the only one down there with this particular problem. Ask around.. Good luck, Stay tuned LVR
parsley, carachysita, or Cedron? If not any of those there may be other plant variants that can contribute to your problem. Dog feces can also contribute
to the problem and that includes healty dogs. Also the area is warm and moist (i think?!) fungus growing around any feed run off or sludge can be a
factor. This is not meant to be either an insult or funny but would you drink the water the cattle drink.? ( I don't either but they still should have a clean
source!} Lepto may have been mentioned already. All this aside I am compelled to ask are you the hands on manager or does that responsibilty rest
elsewhere? I would pray you are boots on the ground as it will be easier for you to bring this to a successful conclusion sooner than if you are not.
I can attest you are receiving some good ideas from cattle people on this forum based on the information you have given. It is quite possible you may not
be the only one down there with this particular problem. Ask around.. Good luck, Stay tuned LVR
Dusty Britches
Well-known member
I would think late term abortions regardless of herd size is cause for concern.
I think many people have provided good advice on this:
A little story about toxic weeds - in 2010-2011 during the Texas drouth we were almost completely out of grass. We shipped in some hay from out of state and a strange weed appeared from that hay in our pasture. There was only 2 or 3 of them but I was very concerned that we introduced something. The cows ignored it. Until I sprayed it with round up. The weeds became toxic as they withered but it also became desirable to cattle. 2 cows ate those plants and they both aborted late term fetuses. Those are the only 2 late term abortions I've had in 20 years.
I think many people have provided good advice on this:
1. Check for known genetic deficiencies in the breed. Many breeds also have identified genetic markers for specific conditions and you can submit samples for review.
2. Potential vaccine issues, but personally I'm not leaning that way. I would think with your operation size you know to stay away from MLV on bred cows and know to only use those in open cows prior to breeding.
3. Mineral deficiency. Could be even with free choice mineral. You don't have any way of knowing if or how much mineral a cow consumed. A multi-min shot is the best practice.
4. Toxic weed consumption.
A little story about toxic weeds - in 2010-2011 during the Texas drouth we were almost completely out of grass. We shipped in some hay from out of state and a strange weed appeared from that hay in our pasture. There was only 2 or 3 of them but I was very concerned that we introduced something. The cows ignored it. Until I sprayed it with round up. The weeds became toxic as they withered but it also became desirable to cattle. 2 cows ate those plants and they both aborted late term fetuses. Those are the only 2 late term abortions I've had in 20 years.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
When we're looking at toxic or teratogenic(causing defects) plants... we generally anticipate that affected calves will all be aborted or born with similar defects in a particular season... not over the entire year. Generally, those plants will not be present all year round, or are particularly more toxic in specific time periods - or availability or palatability may vary during different seasons, so that cows are less likely to consume them, particularly during the phase of pregnancy when developing fetuses would be affected.
Infectious causes of abortion are many. In this part of the world (western KY/TN), Neosporosis is the leading identified cause of mid to late-term bovine abortions, but in other parts of the world, there may be other more common causes.
Infectious causes of abortion are many. In this part of the world (western KY/TN), Neosporosis is the leading identified cause of mid to late-term bovine abortions, but in other parts of the world, there may be other more common causes.
wbvs58
Well-known member
Lucky, what is your take on BVD causing defects like this. Are they more related to the CNS?
Ken
Ken
Hey Ken, IBR can cause late term abortions, BVD generally any time in our experience. Seems to me Lupine can cause those types of deformities.our friend Greg was one that lived although his feed conversion is not the best. I have been mistaken before.
pictured with yearling heifers last spring as a two year old.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Ken,
In 30 yrs of diagnostic pathology, I can count on one hand the number of confirmed BVD-associated abortions I've seen. Cerebellar hypoplasia cases...not more than a couple.
Most neural tube defects I saw - before the emergence of AM & NH in Angus - were rare, sporadic, and mostly of unknown etiology. No lupines here, and though poison hemlock is becoming increasingly prevalent in pastures in some KY pastures, I'd not noticed any increase in the rare cases of suspected Conium-associated defects.
Over the last 25 years, the only IBR-associated abortions I saw were ml vaccine-induced. Even for respiratory disease, we'd often go decades without seeing IBR cases over here in western KY; I know it's a problem in other areas, but we just rarely encountered it.
In 30 yrs of diagnostic pathology, I can count on one hand the number of confirmed BVD-associated abortions I've seen. Cerebellar hypoplasia cases...not more than a couple.
Most neural tube defects I saw - before the emergence of AM & NH in Angus - were rare, sporadic, and mostly of unknown etiology. No lupines here, and though poison hemlock is becoming increasingly prevalent in pastures in some KY pastures, I'd not noticed any increase in the rare cases of suspected Conium-associated defects.
Over the last 25 years, the only IBR-associated abortions I saw were ml vaccine-induced. Even for respiratory disease, we'd often go decades without seeing IBR cases over here in western KY; I know it's a problem in other areas, but we just rarely encountered it.
Mgutzwiler
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Mgutzwiler
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I think you know Multimin isn't a vaccine. It is a great way to help your herd with minerals and trace minerals. In turn to help the health of your cow/calf pairs and herd bulls. We are very impressed with what we have see it do for us. Jmo
As the OP is unable or unwilling to share the whole story and asked for help through a wall smoke and mirrors, I was definitely speaking tongue in cheek
OP
OP
Chapin81
Well-known member
Thanks everyone for their input. I was able to text our vet he thinks it could brucellosis, when asked if they were vaccinated for it he didn't answer the text. I called our local government office this morning as well, to see if they could do the blood work for us but since we are too remote they cannot schedule anything for a few weeks, and said why doesn't my vet just take care of it... I guess time for a new vet. I finally got a hold of another vet that will be there next week to draw blood from the entire herd and get the blood to a lab, should I test for anything else???
Last I'd like apologize for not writing out the whole story. I'm not avoiding your questions or hiding from them. I'm just really really busy working a lot of long hours and my head is spinning with coordinating what needs to be done. Unfortunately I'm 2,000 miles away from the cattle and can only do so much. But I do want to thank everyone for taking their time to provide so much information. There is a lot I'm learning here and very thankful for it.
Last I'd like apologize for not writing out the whole story. I'm not avoiding your questions or hiding from them. I'm just really really busy working a lot of long hours and my head is spinning with coordinating what needs to be done. Unfortunately I'm 2,000 miles away from the cattle and can only do so much. But I do want to thank everyone for taking their time to provide so much information. There is a lot I'm learning here and very thankful for it.
Putangitangi
Well-known member
I had a "hare lip" calf this season. Born live, missing half her hard palate, her nasal passage was open in her mouth, bottom jaw had grown into the gap. She couldn't suckle properly, obviously had numerous other developmental issues and I put her down a couple of weeks ago. She was never going to be able to feed on her own and she'd amount to nothing useful so it was time to call it.
Chapin81 is 2000 miles from his cattle and you bozos act like he can walk out the back door and and answer your questions! He has none of the University research support we have. He has very little of the veterinarian support we have. His employees apparently have little know how. Cut this guy some slack, morons!
Lee VanRoss
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Chapin: I cannot stress enough how important it is to moniter the cattle but also of any one working with them. I made mention of this is in my earlier
statements. Without going into detail suffice it to say we had a run in that involved hogs resuting in wholesale slaughter and burial. Fortunately
the cattle tested negative and after some duration could be sold but I don't think it was for human consumption as I remember them talking about
how little they brought. It seems like it was 5 years before we had stock on that part of the place where the hogs were located. I don't have anyone
to ask about it anymore but it seems like the folks were monitored for (Johnson's disease?) It has been so long ago and I could have 2 events ran
together. The point I would make to anyone on this forum is IF there is a health problem with your livestock treat it as if it were the Black Plague until
it is certain there is no risk to the health and well being of your family. I will freely admit I know nothing of the culture where the cattle are located
but I would submit you can not have a viable operation and have the local population believing (rightly or wrongly) that your livestock poses a risk
to anyone working there. LVR
statements. Without going into detail suffice it to say we had a run in that involved hogs resuting in wholesale slaughter and burial. Fortunately
the cattle tested negative and after some duration could be sold but I don't think it was for human consumption as I remember them talking about
how little they brought. It seems like it was 5 years before we had stock on that part of the place where the hogs were located. I don't have anyone
to ask about it anymore but it seems like the folks were monitored for (Johnson's disease?) It has been so long ago and I could have 2 events ran
together. The point I would make to anyone on this forum is IF there is a health problem with your livestock treat it as if it were the Black Plague until
it is certain there is no risk to the health and well being of your family. I will freely admit I know nothing of the culture where the cattle are located
but I would submit you can not have a viable operation and have the local population believing (rightly or wrongly) that your livestock poses a risk
to anyone working there. LVR
