How'd they get black?

[S.R.R.]

Thank you 1848 for not showing me any of the studys that I asked for. You proved my point even better then I could have. There is no proof out there as of yet just were the black comes from in most of these breeds. So anyone that says the black is from Welsh Black, Angus or any other black breed is just giving their opinion not a true fact! Also 1848 I would hope that you do not base all your judgements on only one persons opinion without doing any research of your own.

These facts are not a put down to Angus just facts found on Angus and Welsh sites.

A few quick facts to help you along your journey of discovery.

1.Angus cows are moderate size. mature cows average 1,100- 1200 lbs.

2. Moderate sized Welsh cow weighs 1100 - 1400 pounds

3. Mature Welsh bulls weigh from 1900 to 2500 pounds.

4. Mature Angus bulls weigh from 1800 to 2500 pounds

5. There are a large number of polled Welsh Black

6. Both you and farmer Rich should have a look at this link!

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department ... enDocument

Take a good look at the Final Results for 28 British Bulls. What Breed has 4 of the top 5 spots?

Have fun this should be a real eye opener for you.

 

[1848]

I still want to know how those little Aberdeen Angus that weighed 800 to a 1000 pounds got to be so big.

That was the breeding "back" part! :lol:

 

[1848]

Not trying to be a smarta-- it seems that the hereford and shorthorn breeds had the same problem. I think there were some herds that didn't go small when the rest did. Not going to say there wasn't some breeding up going on.

Originally Herefords were the size of Oxen. Then they were bred down for efficiency and have since been bred back up to moderate.

 

[Angus Guy]

S R R

That was a interesting study, but I noticed one thing the welsh blacks did not go head to head with the black angus.

 

[la4angus]

S R R

That was a interesting study, but I noticed one thing the welsh blacks did not go head to head with the black angus.

They can't afford too and keep their respect.

 

[1848]

Thank you 1848 for not showing me any of the studys that I asked for. You proved my point even better then I could have

You're welcome!

First of all I work for a living, and I didn't have all day to search for your so called facts!

Secondly, you proved no point.

Third, I actually did a couple quick searches and was able to find numerous articles eluding to Angus being used to breed up other breeds, but not one mentioned Welsh Black being used to breed up. One of the articles on the Angus Assoc. e-news. Others on various cattle boards. In Fact, the quote I found from you came from a google search on the matter! :P
I would have posted something if I felt it was necesaary to uphold your claim but I found no proof of yours in my hasty search.

Maybe I'll have time this weekend to find your proof.

Also 1848 I would hope that you do not base all your judgements on only one persons opinion without doing any research of your own.

Like I said..."hasty search"



A few quick facts to help you:

1.Angus cows are moderate size. mature cows average 1,100- 1200 lbs.

Great! athough I said nothing about size. Any quotes on deficiencies were from the farmer in England!

2. Moderate sized Welsh cow weighs 1100 - 1400 pounds

Now they do!

3. Mature Welsh bulls weigh from 1900 to 2500 pounds.

Once again...Now they do

4. Mature Angus bulls weigh from 1800 to 2500 pounds

Always have (maybe even a smaller top end would be more correct!)

5. There are a large number of polled Welsh Black

Probably from mixing in Angus, Gelbvieh and Limmi

6. Both you and farmer Rich should have a look at this link!

Too much reading for today! Mike C wore me out! :lol:

Take a good look at the Final Results for 28 British Bulls. What Breed has 4 of the top 5 spots?

Dosen't mean it's common. Could have been the breeder....and it is just 4 animals. :roll:

Have fun this should be a real eye opener for you.

Actually it almost put me to sleep...yaaaawn!

 

[1848]

SRR,

Couldn't help myself. I had to go give it a couple of minutes of search before turning in. These are some highlights:

They have a recessive red gene

They were not brought in the US until 1968

The Assoc. allows upbreeding or non purebloods

Australia only has 500

Everything I saw said horned

I just can't figure out how these cattle could have been considered in all the upbreeding and the color markings you say they are responsible for in the other breeds? Espicially seeing they were not even around in some of the upbreedings (ie: Brangus 1949...hmmmmm)

 

[Brandonm2]

I can't tell what I'm looking at unless I read the farm or ranch sign. It's not that I have anything against black cattle but why does everyone want them to all look alike? Even Beefmaster is now breeding them black. I used to raise registered Beefmasters and never saw a black one in those days unless it was crossed with something else. The black Beefmasters that I've seen pictures of look like a Brangus especially since they're breeding them polled as well.

I USED to be able to tell what a straightbred bull WAS by looking at him. For better or worse, those days are really gone. Believe it or not this is a Simmental..... http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/simmen ... o=29SM0370
and IF I knew anything about Simmental bulls I am sure there are many more Angus looking bulls out there. He is black, he is polled. You could use him on Hereford cows and produce black baldie heifers and I doubt any would ever suspect their true origins.

 

[showme]

Yea and a black Char. to but I only seen one.

 

[rkaiser]

Angus Guy

That was a interesting study, but I noticed one thing the welsh blacks did not go head to head with the black angus.

The Angus guys didn't bring any in. They don't come into the steer trial at the same college either.

Some say being on top of the industry is a good place to be, so why put yourself in a position you might not like.

I say breeds are breeds. A lot more difference within breeds than between breeds.

Where did black come from? Who cares. I know there are two darn good true black breeds out there that have cattle that work very well. Our very own Welsh Black and Galloways.

 

[la4angus]

Where did black come from? Who cares. I know there are two darn good true black breeds out there that have cattle that work very well. Our very own Welsh Black and Galloways.

Hey Kaiser. Why do you care. You are forgetting the Angus. if the other black breeds are anything, the Angus made them what they are. Don't let jealousy hold you down, like it did to the Herefords, a breed as good or better than the Angus

 

[farmer rich]

Very interesting study SSR. Thanks for sharing.
Was the answer to your question red angus?

 

[S.R.R.]

1848 you must slow down a bit. In all of your haste you missed the point again and I to work a far bit and can not keep repeating myself. :roll: :roll:
If you will just read the post without haste you will see a line like this ( There is no proof that the black comes from Welsh Black, Angus or any other black breed.) Point is made. I have as much proof it came from Welsh Black as any one does that it came from another black breed. THERE IS NO PROOF.
You choses to use Farmer Riches statement and that put you in the boat of the need to be informed. Hence the quick 101.

I must say a sorry. :idea: I did not know you were from Australia. I can now see why you are so uninformed about the Welsh Black.
I do love Australia when I visit and I have some good friends from there. But even they will tell you that Australia is always one of the last to get current information. The internet does seem to be helping though and as I get FACTS on beef cattle here. I would be happy to send them to you. It may help you save some time as well. That way you are not so much more over worked then the rest of us!


http://www.rbta.org/welsh.htm

This must be the link you found your 500 #. Again this problem you have with haste must have made you miss most of the information. Here is the study on that page.

The longer hair in winter and the excellent digestive system ensures maximum muscle and least amount of fat produced. At the same time the meat is generally marbled. Carcass competitions in Britain, New Zealand and Australia have confirmed this.
Britain - Mr Michael R thomas of Caernarfon re: Royal Smithfield Show. Four cattle were bought - three pure Welsh Black steers and one Charolais x Welsh Black heifer. All four were slaughtered and the quality of beef was excellent. the confirmation of the carcass was good and the sirloin and rib section well finished. The percentages that they killed were as follows:
steer 1 - 552 days old, 529kg live wgt, 62%
steer 2 - 730 days old, 643kg live wgt 63%
heifer 3 - 454 days old, 428 kg live wgt 63%(WBX)
steer 4 - 804 days old, 628 kg live wgt 66%
New Zealand - Mr NH Robinson re: Dannevirke A & P Ass. Carcass Competition. First year entered, a pure Welsh Black steer was 3rd in the export Beef and Beef cuts competition with a total yield of 69.6% from HSCW of 362kg. The following year his Welsh Black steers won 1st and 2nd places with 66.4% from a HSCW of 315kg and 68.3% from 287kg respectively.
Australia - M&M Douglass, Blackwater Park, NSW Lang Lang 1989 - HSCW 254kg Fat 8mm: placed 4th (Hereford x Welsh Black) Lang Lang 1991 - HSCW 179.5kg Fat 4mm: placed 2nd (Friesian x Welsh Black 9 months)

Not to bad for such inferior cattle eh?

 

[1848]

1848 you must slow down a bit. In all of your haste you missed the point again and I to work a far bit and can not keep repeating myself. :roll: :roll:

Huh? the underlined dosen't make sense

If you will just read the post without haste you will see a line like this ( There is no proof that the black comes from Welsh Black, Angus or any other black breed.) Point is made.

I believe the point you were trying to make is that the Welsh black were responsible for the coloring in all those breeds! :shock: So I guess you did prove my point!

I have as much proof it came from Welsh Black as any one does that it came from another black breed. THERE IS NO PROOF.

Oh!, so you assumed then?

You choses to use Farmer Riches statement and that put you in the boat of the need to be informed. Hence the quick 101.

Just found it along with yours in the google search and copied it from the old "Welsh Bashing thread!" :lol:

I must say a sorry. :idea: I did not know you were from Australia. I can now see why you are so uninformed about the Welsh Black.

No worries mate!

..That way you are not so much more over worked then the rest of us!.

I'd answer here, but I got to go to work! :shock:

Not to bad for such inferior cattle eh?

You said it...not me! :lol:

 

[Rustler9]

I knew this was going to open up a whole new can of whoop a** but it is interesting to read. I'm not an Angus breeder and I truly do not have anything against them, there's probably nothing concrete to prove that Angus was used to turn all of these breeds black but I still think that's what did it. I've never seen or heard anything about Welsh Black cattle until just recently here on this board and I doubt if many other folks here in the U.S. have either. I'm not knocking them either but I doubt if they were used in changing all of these breeds to black. Sorry to you Welsh Black folks but how could they have been used if they weren't around?

I also understand that black cattle is the trend right now and that's fine too but I still don't understand why everyone wants to change all of these different breeds to look alike but who am I to question it? If everyone wants an Angus lookalike why don't they just raise Angus? :?:

 

[S.R.R.]

1848 I had an old cow like you once. Could not teacher her a darn thing with out her twisting it around and ending up sitting in her own $hi!. With the price of cattle going up it is to bad your not an old cow. ;-) :lol: ;-)

 

[MikeC]

I think I will turn some white cattle black by using Wagyu's.

 

[S.R.R.]

I am sure you are right Rustler9. My post that Welsh Black did it was to show Jason W that there are only opinions to his question no facts. We can say what might seem to have happend but that is it. I also agree that if a person wants to raise black cattle then pick a black breed. I think that would have worked if there was a black Continental breed. With the market the way it is in alot of places it seems they want big and black.

 

[Brandonm2]

I also understand that black cattle is the trend right now and that's fine too but I still don't understand why everyone wants to change all of these different breeds to look alike but who am I to question it? If everyone wants an Angus lookalike why don't they just raise Angus? :?:

I don't raise Angus cows or Simmentals, Limousins, Gelbvieh, etc that LOOK like Angus cows so I don't have a dog in this hunt and I really like a lot of the Angus look-alikes but that is my opinion too. I saw a Simmental ad recently stating that the avg. 2004 Simmental bull had a 5+ frame score (down two scores from 10 years ago). Why would a commercial guy really want a moderate framed Simmental in a crossbreeding scenario? If I am going to use Simmental I like slapping a big framed Simmental bull on moderate framed british cows to produce big heavy x-bred calves that weigh and if the Simme is the same size as my existing cows, I could probably get more pounds by outcrossing in-breed to a bigger British Bull. Likewise if I buy a Limousin or Gelbvieh for cr4ossbreeding I want a meat wagon who is going to put muscle on my calves.

The late Jay Nixon wrote a column once in Cattle Today lamenting the fact that every sire breed landed in America after a few years suddenly got smaller, less muscled, and more feminine since American cattlemen produce replacement heifers or show heifers first and market steers and terminal sires second and sire breeds end up over time becoming maternal breeds which we already had in the Herefords, Anguses, and the eared breeds. There is some truth to that. While I think crossbreeding has some heterosis advantages, if the other breeds in your crossbreeding scheme are all the same frame and are bred to try to produce the same carcass characteristics and are so similar to Angus that nobody can tell them from a straight bred Angus, I kind of wonder if you would not be better off (It would certainly be easier to manage) just breeding straight Angus being careful to outcross amoung different families and selecting individuals bulls that make up for flaws in your cows. The EPDs would be a LOT more usable and the cattle a lot more predictable.

(THIS has not been a paid advertisment for the American Angus Association)

 

[1848]

1848 I had an old cow like you once. Could not teacher her a darn thing with out her twisting it around and ending up sitting in her own $hi!. With the price of cattle going up it is to bad your not an old cow. ;-) :lol: ;-)

OK, this was funny! :lol: You do have a sense of humor.

I guess I am kinda like that ol cow, cause I keep Sh**ting in your 101 class! :lol: