How can we make a better cattle future in Ky

[Bright Raven]

1. Lack of consistency
2 Distance from feedlots
3 health protocols
4 small herd size

Fix those 4 things and you will get more from your cattle. They can all be overcome it just takes work.

I agree. Those are primary goals of the UK extension programs. I would add genetic improvement and better nutrition.

What is UK doing about distance to the feedlots and small herd size.

UK Extension efforts promote cattle production through the CAIP program, training, and public outreach. They play a role on the County Cattle Board. They have contributed to the expansion of cattle operations, including mine. Helping producers evaluate their profits was an effort we made about 4 years ago. Profits often come up on these boards. It is concerning that a lot of cattle producers are not properly costing their inputs. Expanding their herds is one of the functions that might help spread out costs. The Extension and Boards contribute to herd expansion.

In regard to feedlots. We recognize that Kentucky does not rank as high as we would like as a feeder producer. We would like to improve that. One way we all see is having closer markets. Nothing proactive has been done on that front but it is acknowledged. There are programs for pooling resources and taking potloads of feeders from more than one producer to feedlots out west. Ownership is retained and the producer is paid on performance. Unfortunately, those programs have been disappointing to some producers who did not feel rewarded.

 

[CattleMan1920]

1. Lack of consistency
2 Distance from feedlots
3 health protocols
4 small herd size

Fix those 4 things and you will get more from your cattle. They can all be overcome it just takes work.

I agree. Those are primary goals of the UK extension programs. I would add genetic improvement and better nutrition.

What is UK doing about distance to the feedlots and small herd size.

Nothing from why I can see, and on top of that they are pushing very high CED and low birthweight as a strategy. I could be wrong but it's a strategy that seems to say to the producer "don't worry about your $B or carcass traits, definitely don't concern yourself with above average weaning weights, just focus on not losing a calf while you are at your job away from the farm"

If I'm not mistaken, UK's policy drives cost share guidelines, CAIP. . Producers here use CAIP to buy bulls, if you can get your bulls to qualify for CAIP, you have a better chance of selling seed stock. UK and Morehead University seem to be all in on calving ease, small frame, and low birthweight. They are essentially guiding the herd characteristics for the state. I may be way off base, but that is what I see based on my trip to the UK farm in Woodford county, Morehead State University's offerings in the Grass Time Partners sale, and CAIP guidance. Even our regional Angus rep said to me a few years back "just focus on calving ease and you will be fine, the higher the better, they sell well" That didn't set well with me, it basically told me "just breed whatever the current trend is" That is a bad strategy considering that a breeding decision today can have vast consequences years down the line.

At *************, we don't use any Gov assistance or participate in cost share programs. We don't breed to meet program guidelines, we breed to improve the breed, that doesn't always fit in with what UK or Morehead see as the right direction in the cattle business. Most of our clients see our bulls, say "that's the one I want" and write a check. That's not the case for a lot of bull buyers who obtain state assistance and or a loan to buy a bull.

With all due respect to the tenured professors at the UK ag dept, the real world does not work with generous endowments, producers don't have the luxury of experimentation, producers who follow bad advice can be paying dearly for years. I think stacking calving ease upon calving ease year after year is going to produce underperforming cows and heifers that won't be able to push out a jackrabbit if they have to, which is only going to take KY cattle down another notch.

At a UK cattlemans camp, I attended a while back, there was little to no discussion on using terminal sires like SAV International or Harvestor, no discussion on pushing up weaning weights through genetics, no strategies on building a solid beef business. I would bet that if a serious rancher from Nebraska or North Dakota were to have attended the camp they would have been scratching their head trying to figure out how anyone stays alive in the cattle business here. I'm not joking when I say this, I sometimes feel that a lot of producers would do better raising deer for hunters to shoot. That seems to be happening where we are located.

Here is another issue. A few days ago I received a call for one of our service ready bulls. The gentleman on the line, an older fellow asked "how much for a good bull?" I replied "$3500" he said "oh, that's too much, I was looking for something in the $1000-1500 range" I then asked him a few questions out of curiosity "How many cattle do you have to breed and what are your objectives?" He replied "about 20 head" and "I just need to get calves, I don't care about the quality as long as I get em on the ground" he was a nice fellow, and meant well, but it was not a good fit between us. I told him he was welcome to stop by and we ended it there.

That exchange above happens frequently. There is absolutely no regard to improving quality, retaining daughters, building, etc. When I hear these people discuss their operations, I wonder how they will ever do any more than just scrape by. In fact they are just the folks that the Barbers rely on to fuel their cattle businesses, problem is the producer of the marginal product is just barely breaking even. It's a vicious cycle.

These are just my observations.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Counting other peoples money with out having access to there bank account is kinda hard to do. Was a old man lived across the river from me that looked lake a bum coming down the road. Left 600 acres apiece to 7 kids along with around 10 million in the bank to work with. He wouldn't have bought your 3500.00 bull either. He wouldn't have ever told you truth about how many cows he had either. Not all people need the best to make money.

 

[Ky hills]

Counting other peoples money with out having access to there bank account is kinda hard to do. Was a old man lived across the river from me that looked lake a bum coming down the road. Left 600 acres apiece to 7 kids along with around 10 million in the bank to work with. He wouldn't have bought your 3500.00 bull either. He wouldn't have ever told you truth about how many cows he had either. Not all people need the best to make money.

I don't have a like button or I would use it on this post. That sums up the mindset of some folks I know and have known. They are not likely to tell everything about their business, and they seem to do pretty well with what they buy and sell.

 

[Ky hills]

In regards to UK and their work in the bull selection area, I have been to several meetings that they have had professors as speakers. I have heard one that made the statement that you don't always need the best bull. He says that sometimes folks buy a bull that has too much performance for their management. If I recollect it right he was saying that the daughters of said bull may be too heavy milking/hard keeping.
Regardless of opinions positive or negative about the CAIP programs, I feel they have improved the quality of cattle. Sometimes I feel like it has artificially inflated purebred prices, and upped the price of mediocre bulls, nonetheless I reckon that is a step up from just buying a cow freshener though.
I have also thought that the Cost Share guidelines have been skewed towards calving ease Angus. It appears somewhat difficult to find bulls of other breeds to meet the birthweight requirement.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Counting other peoples money with out having access to there bank account is kinda hard to do. Was a old man lived across the river from me that looked lake a bum coming down the road. Left 600 acres apiece to 7 kids along with around 10 million in the bank to work with. He wouldn't have bought your 3500.00 bull either. He wouldn't have ever told you truth about how many cows he had either. Not all people need the best to make money.

I've heard this tired old tale in my area so many times that I have the story memorized. Here goes, "Farmer drives a truck with corn growing in the seat, and the road going by below him, is worth $50 million, that he keeps all in a checking account at the local bank earning no interest, he made it all by saving, raising corn and tending to the scrubbiest cattle he could raise, his wits were all that guided him" oh and everyone at the feed mill and stockyards knows every last detail of his finances because they have seen his bank accounts, deeds, and irrevocable trusts or credit shelter trusts he established with his local CPA and estate planning attorney, right?

Please put me in touch with them, because those farmers of folklore don't really exist when I look around here in Kentucky.

Checking and savings accounts at banks are the absolute worst way to build wealth, and anyone with financial acumen will tell you that. I would have been more interested in hearing that he owned 6000 acres, with 1500 head of cattle, index funds, and a large multifamily rental portfolio. Then you might have convinced me.

Also 7 kids by today's standards will drain every dime you have to your name, unless you use them as labor, and most kids aren't interested in that plan.

What I take away from your story is this, "buy the worst bull you can find, hope for the best, and stay away from quality at all costs, because it may mean your "not keeping it real"

The guy I spoke with was very nice, and we had a good conversation, he just did not see the benefit in improving his herd. There were no hard feelings, we ended the conversation with an INVITATION to come see the herd. I would have liked to have sold him a good bull, but there was no pressure on my part.

If you want a bit of advice that is very simple "you usually get what you pay for". A $1000 bull or a $500 cow is probably not going to serve you too well in the long run. I knew a guy once that owned about 8-10 vehicles at one time, all licensed and titled. He would drive one a few months until it would quit, then it would be put in the field, then on to the next one. I think he rather liked to do that, anyway, I can't imagine that it would have been far better to buy one or two good to very good vehicles, that were reliable and stick to them instead. All he did was make life harder on himself.

 

[Bright Raven]

Counting other peoples money with out having access to there bank account is kinda hard to do. Was a old man lived across the river from me that looked lake a bum coming down the road. Left 600 acres apiece to 7 kids along with around 10 million in the bank to work with. He wouldn't have bought your 3500.00 bull either. He wouldn't have ever told you truth about how many cows he had either. Not all people need the best to make money.

I've heard this tired old tale in my area so many times that I have the story memorized. Here goes, "Farmer drives a truck with corn growing in the seat, and the road going by below him, is worth $50 million, that he keeps all in a checking account at the local bank earning no interest, he made it all by saving, raising corn and tending to the scrubbiest cattle he could raise, his wits were all that guided him" oh and everyone at the feed mill and stockyards knows every last detail of his finances because they have seen his bank accounts, deeds, and irrevocable trusts or credit shelter trusts he established with his local CPA and estate planning attorney, right?

Please put me in touch with them, because those farmers of folklore don't really exist when I look around here in Kentucky.

Checking and savings accounts at banks are the absolute worst way to build wealth, and anyone with financial acumen will tell you that. I would have been more interested in hearing that he owned 6000 acres, with 1500 head of cattle, index funds, and a large multifamily rental portfolio. Then you might have convinced me.

Also 7 kids by today's standards will drain every dime you have to your name, unless you use them as labor, and most kids aren't interested in that plan.

What I take away from your story is this, "buy the worst bull you can find, hope for the best, and stay away from quality at all costs, because it may mean your "not keeping it real"

The guy I spoke with was very nice, and we had a good conversation, he just did not see the benefit in improving his herd. There were no hard feelings, we ended the conversation with an INVITATION to come see the herd. I would have liked to have sold him a good bull, but there was no pressure on my part.

If you want a bit of advice that is very simple "you usually get what you pay for". A $1000 bull or a $500 cow is probably not going to serve you too well in the long run. I knew a guy once that owned about 8-10 vehicles at one time, all licensed and titled. He would drive one a few months until it would quit, then it would be put in the field, then on to the next one. I think he rather liked to do that, anyway, I can't imagine that it would have been far better to buy one or two good to very good vehicles, that were reliable and stick to them instead. All he did was make life harder on himself.

James if there was a like button. I would put one on this post.

IMO you nailed it. I have heard the same old stories from the guy sitting on a feed sack at the local mill who tells the story so many times he believes it.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Counting other peoples money with out having access to there bank account is kinda hard to do. Was a old man lived across the river from me that looked lake a bum coming down the road. Left 600 acres apiece to 7 kids along with around 10 million in the bank to work with. He wouldn't have bought your 3500.00 bull either. He wouldn't have ever told you truth about how many cows he had either. Not all people need the best to make money.

I've heard this tired old tale in my area so many times that I have the story memorized. Here goes, "Farmer drives a truck with corn growing in the seat, and the road going by below him, is worth $50 million, that he keeps all in a checking account at the local bank earning no interest, he made it all by saving, raising corn and tending to the scrubbiest cattle he could raise, his wits were all that guided him" oh and everyone at the feed mill and stockyards knows every last detail of his finances because they have seen his bank accounts, deeds, and irrevocable trusts or credit shelter trusts he established with his local CPA and estate planning attorney, right?

Please put me in touch with them, because those farmers of folklore don't really exist when I look around here in Kentucky.

Checking and savings accounts at banks are the absolute worst way to build wealth, and anyone with financial acumen will tell you that. I would have been more interested in hearing that he owned 6000 acres, with 1500 head of cattle, index funds, and a large multifamily rental portfolio. Then you might have convinced me.

Also 7 kids by today's standards will drain every dime you have to your name, unless you use them as labor, and most kids aren't interested in that plan.

What I take away from your story is this, "buy the worst bull you can find, hope for the best, and stay away from quality at all costs, because it may mean your "not keeping it real"

The guy I spoke with was very nice, and we had a good conversation, he just did not see the benefit in improving his herd. There were no hard feelings, we ended the conversation with an INVITATION to come see the herd. I would have liked to have sold him a good bull, but there was no pressure on my part.

If you want a bit of advice that is very simple "you usually get what you pay for". A $1000 bull or a $500 cow is probably not going to serve you too well in the long run. I knew a guy once that owned about 8-10 vehicles at one time, all licensed and titled. He would drive one a few months until it would quit, then it would be put in the field, then on to the next one. I think he rather liked to do that, anyway, I can't imagine that it would have been far better to buy one or two good to very good vehicles, that were reliable and stick to them instead. All he did was make life harder on himself.

James if there was a like button. I would put one on this post.

IMO you nailed it. I have heard the same old stories from the guy sitting on a feed sack at the local mill who tells the story so many times he believes it.

The absolute top 1% of Kentucky earners have an annual income starting at $700k. They are usually business owners, physicians, or attorneys. Of those business owners, most are in some form of industrial or construction business. Of the physicians, they are usually high-end specialists, and of the attorneys, they are usually partners or owners of a major Lexington or Louisville law firm.

There are outliers, like some coal baron, or other examples, but Kentucky is largely a poor place, the majority of the state is below the poverty level especially the eastern part of the state.

The local folklore makes for some great stories, but unless you are one of the people I mentioned at the start, you probably are not in the 1%, you are in the 99%.

Now I know it makes people in the 99% feel good to imagine themselves in the 1%, but that's about a far as it goes.

I know for a fact that if I was standing at the counter of Southern States with a $10k roll of bills in my hand, held together with a rubber band and I paid my feed bill in hundreds that I peeled off, that it would take no time for people to say "that guy, oh he is super rich" It takes very little to impress people, especially with shiny things. Real money, 8 figure and above money, is not made in farming these days, it's made in technology. I doubt the old farmer mentioned above owned a tech company in his portfolio, maybe he did, maybe he bought an IPO or bitcoin, hence the reason he had a fat bank account, who knows. One thing is for sure it didn't come about from crops on 600 acres and scrub cattle. There are kids on Youtube making 6 figures a month wearing jeans and t shirts and working from an Iphone and Macbook, how about we discuss them, at least we will be talking about people that actually have money.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Arkansas isn't exactly a big money state unless your a Tyson or a Walton. Even Bill Clinton was a poor pecker wood till he hit the big time in politics. But I still see a lot of those folks that aren't making any money with cattle driving new trucks and running new John Deere tractors. Myself I am just a broke Kubota owner.

 

[Bright Raven]

If running a new truck and new John Deere tractor is the criteria for rich, then Kentucky has a bunch. Unfortunately, those tractors and trucks are financed to the limits.

 

[CattleMan1920]

If running a new truck and new John Deere tractor is the criteria for rich, then Kentucky has a bunch. Unfortunately, those tractors and trucks are financed to the limits.

Once the recession hits, and hits HARD, which will be very soon, the financing deals on farm equipment and trucks will be unreal, 0% for 84 months, no money down, along with a section 179 deduction on $300-400k equipment makes it pretty interesting.

When that occurs I'm ordering a 6R series and a silage baker that wraps individual bales behind it. Capital expenditures for expansion makes sense.

It's hard to pass up free money.

 

[ddd75]

the people you are talking about are extremely rare.. you have better chance at winning the lottery then becoming a youtube sensation.


I can take you on a tour around here and show you plenty of people.. hundreds.. that have made a fortune with crops / farming. They are driving around 300k tracked tractors pulling 120k tracked grain carts, , 150k planters, 5 semi trucks.. etc.etc.etc.etc.. all while holding 3-5 million+ in land value. Probably have 2-3 million in equipment, 2-5 million in land, and making probably 500k+ a year on owned and rented land / gov subsidies.

If farming didn't get them rich i'm not sure what did, maybe a farming fairy

 

[True Grit Farms]

Arkansas isn't exactly a big money state unless your a Tyson or a Walton. Even Bill Clinton was a poor pecker wood till he hit the big time in politics. But I still see a lot of those folks that aren't making any money with cattle driving new trucks and running new John Deere tractors. Myself I am just a broke Kubota owner.

Red Bull Breeder, this guy is a clown. Supposedly breeding Angus cattle for 40 years and is still trying to figure out which way is up.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Arkansas isn't exactly a big money state unless your a Tyson or a Walton. Even Bill Clinton was a poor pecker wood till he hit the big time in politics. But I still see a lot of those folks that aren't making any money with cattle driving new trucks and running new John Deere tractors. Myself I am just a broke Kubota owner.

Red Bull Breeder, this guy is a clown. Supposedly breeding Angus cattle for 40 years and is still trying to figure out which way is up.

Did I call you names True Grit? Have I ever? This is not a pis...ng contest. I'm just saying that lots of people you hear of that are supposedly rich are far from it. We have horse farms in Kentucky owned by billionaires who fly in on private jets. Some horses get $250k a pop for a stud fee. I don't pretend to roll with that crowd. I'm calling bull crap on the super rich farmer myth. Comfortable maybe, rich by today's standards, nope. Rich today is over $1 billion in investable assets or cash equivalents, show me a farmer rolling like that. Rich ain't what it used to be.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Arkansas isn't exactly a big money state unless your a Tyson or a Walton. Even Bill Clinton was a poor pecker wood till he hit the big time in politics. But I still see a lot of those folks that aren't making any money with cattle driving new trucks and running new John Deere tractors. Myself I am just a broke Kubota owner.

Red Bull Breeder, this guy is a clown. Supposedly breeding Angus cattle for 40 years and is still trying to figure out which way is up.

Did I call you names True Grit? Have I ever? This is not a pis...ng contest. I'm just saying that lots of people you hear of that are supposedly rich are far from it. We have horse farms in Kentucky owned by billionaires who fly in on private jets. Some horses get $250k a pop for a stud fee. I don't pretend to roll with that crowd. I'm calling bull crap on the super rich farmer myth. Comfortable maybe, rich by today's standards, nope. Rich today is over $1 billion in investable assets or cash equivalents, show me a farmer rolling like that. Rich ain't what it used to be.

A lot of rich people aren't rich all they have is money.

 

[CattleMan1920]

the people you are talking about are extremely rare.. you have better chance at winning the lottery then becoming a youtube sensation.


I can take you on a tour around here and show you plenty of people.. hundreds.. that have made a fortune with crops / farming. They are driving around 300k tracked tractors pulling 120k tracked grain carts, , 150k planters, 5 semi trucks.. etc.etc.etc.etc.. all while holding 3-5 million+ in land value. Probably have 2-3 million in equipment, 2-5 million in land, and making probably 500k+ a year on owned and rented land / gov subsidies.

If farming didn't get them rich i'm not sure what did, maybe a farming fairy

I've also heard about people in the KY setting fire to their combines and tractors to collect on insurance money right after the beans are harvested. You must be in Western KY?

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Rich is a heck of a lot different to some folks than others. Some folks has money not because the had a high paying job but because they didn't need to spend it just because the had it. Money in the bank hasn't always been a bad deal. Far as that goes a couple of hundred thousand under a rock is still worth a couple of hundred thousand.

 

[mwj]

I have no dog in this peeing contest but I think your definition of ''rich'' being over a billion is quite the stretch. I have seen moving goal posts in discussions , but that is eye watering. :compute:

 

[CattleMan1920]

I have no dog in this peeing contest but I think your definition of ''rich'' being over a billion is quite the stretch. I have seen moving goal posts in discussions , but that is eye watering. :compute:

Tell me what you can buy in New York, L.A., or Miami with a $10 million net worth? Not much. I saw an article the other day that said that the "average" millionaire had a $25 million dollar net worth, and was around 47 years old.

I know for a fact that if I had $5 million in cash, I could spend the entire amount in one year on our farm and still have things I want to build.

As time goes on, even the 1% are going to be playing catch up, it will be all about if you are in the .001%, just my opinion.

A lot of people on here like Trump, and he thinks one is poor if they aren't a billionaire.

 

[mwj]

Move those goalposts. Now its 5-10 million compared to a billion! You have backed yourself into an interesting question.


Since it takes a billion to make the cut, how many cattle producers will ever be ''rich''? Are your hero's in the industry, just bumbling poor farmers owned by the bank? :compute: