HOW BIG A HERD TO MAKE IT A FULL TIME JOB??
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Anonymous
See my sig line :mrgreen:
back to the issue at hand though. I know that prices are very high but I don't see them falling unless there is a serious problem that affects the entire world. Secondly even if costs rise, They will rise proportional to the sell price. Take my previous example of prices here from 5 years ago. Prices were 30% ( roughly, didn't do the math) lower but costs were also 30%(roughly) lower.
I've said it once, I'll say it again. If your profit most years is only 50-100 bucks per calf, why bother unless it's just for fun.
Don't count subsidizing new equipment every 3 years, or land costs, or a brand new dually every 3 years. I may be new to cattle but not to business.
back to the issue at hand though. I know that prices are very high but I don't see them falling unless there is a serious problem that affects the entire world. Secondly even if costs rise, They will rise proportional to the sell price. Take my previous example of prices here from 5 years ago. Prices were 30% ( roughly, didn't do the math) lower but costs were also 30%(roughly) lower.
I've said it once, I'll say it again. If your profit most years is only 50-100 bucks per calf, why bother unless it's just for fun.
Don't count subsidizing new equipment every 3 years, or land costs, or a brand new dually every 3 years. I may be new to cattle but not to business.
agmantoo
Well-known member
Isomade":t9290u74 said:
I do the above. My land is paid for and I am also a low cost producer. If $40,000 plus will meet your needs a herd of 100 broodcows will meet the requirement in growing zone 7 on 141 acres of good pasture. When I first came on site here the reception was that the village idiot had arrived. Not much has changed. I have attempted to share my experience so that others could also become as profitable. Very few people are willing to give what I do a go. The old adage of doing what your ancestors did will not get you where I think most people want to be. I have had a number of visitors to my place to take a look see but few have gone out and implemented the changes required. I have done what works for me in my location. Those that want to recognize the profit that can be had from their place/animals need to conclude what will work for them at their location and implement it! It is not as difficult as you may think.
agmantoo":2cg52b90 said:
I agree, and I am working toward that very thing, the difference is I still can't winter without hay or some form of suppliment. I can't grow fescue. What I can do is increase stocking rates considerably.
fitz
Well-known member
I've often wondered what the magic number would be. I always figured if I got there things would change and certainly impact that number.
I have the utmost respect for those who run cattle for a living. I've fooled with them for a long time but always had a outside source of income.
I am glad for all of us for current market prices, but I've sold them for a heck of alot less over the years. I've watched input cost follow cattle prices up but I can't remember any coming back down when cattle prices dropped.
There are so many variables to be considered in running livestock. So much unforeseen. It was mentioned having equipment that is paid for. If you're going to produce your own feed the you're going to need equipment. Equipment wears out and has to be replaced. I don't like being at the mercy of others and buying hay. Working with what Mother Nature allows is challenge enough.
Like it or not, we're in a global economy. Things out there are much more iffy than I care to think on for any length of time. With what little I know, if I didn't have cattle today I would not take the gamble. Just the initial cost of those cow numbers you guys are talking is more than I could handle. If I had that money it wouldn't go in cattle.
For those who are getting in at today's market, truly I wish only the best. I figure if someone is buying in now and able to make it work over the long term I'm probably making a little also.
fitz
I have the utmost respect for those who run cattle for a living. I've fooled with them for a long time but always had a outside source of income.
I am glad for all of us for current market prices, but I've sold them for a heck of alot less over the years. I've watched input cost follow cattle prices up but I can't remember any coming back down when cattle prices dropped.
There are so many variables to be considered in running livestock. So much unforeseen. It was mentioned having equipment that is paid for. If you're going to produce your own feed the you're going to need equipment. Equipment wears out and has to be replaced. I don't like being at the mercy of others and buying hay. Working with what Mother Nature allows is challenge enough.
Like it or not, we're in a global economy. Things out there are much more iffy than I care to think on for any length of time. With what little I know, if I didn't have cattle today I would not take the gamble. Just the initial cost of those cow numbers you guys are talking is more than I could handle. If I had that money it wouldn't go in cattle.
For those who are getting in at today's market, truly I wish only the best. I figure if someone is buying in now and able to make it work over the long term I'm probably making a little also.
fitz
agmantoo
Well-known member
Isomade
I read of cattlemen in Canada that manage to reduce their dependence on hay. Others here in the states manage to extend their grazing and reduce their need of high energy supplement by feeding crop residues. With all the corn fodder from ethanol production there has to be cheap feed. Did you read about lacing corn fodder with lime to make it more digestible? I survived the last big drought here by feeding cotton gin waste. Others forfeited several prior years worth of savings by buying out of state hay. I only have 16 days worth of stored feed but I have decided to remain in the cattle business so I am now in the process of locating a used recyclable metal building to use to store hay that I hope to never use. I will buy the hay as it is cheaper than making it. Admittedly I am not in the position to best determine what you can do to create a competitive edge but you are! Approach the task from a non conventional manner and you may find the answer if more obvious than you first imagined. Here are a few things I was told that would not work...I only worm young cattle and cows that show evidence of coarse hair or lack of thriftiness....I calve year round...... I never wean calves, I just send them to market and wean on the trailer, buyers will not pay for conditioning........I do not sell calves seasonally, I sell ~4 times per year, the cash flow is better and I never sell all the calves when the market is low or high, I should get an average for the year......my herd is closed, I do not vaccinate, this could be a mistake......I buy no commercial fertilizer, use chicken litter instead.....I do not use a vet, If I cannot correct the problem, I bury it....If a cow has a problem calving, regardless of the reason or the value of the cow she is culled. I run one mature bull on 100 females......the bull remains with the herd, all animals are in the same herd ........ no supplement is fed, grass and clover only.......I get by on 1.4 acres /cow and her calf all year, was told I would have to have hay......etc.
I read of cattlemen in Canada that manage to reduce their dependence on hay. Others here in the states manage to extend their grazing and reduce their need of high energy supplement by feeding crop residues. With all the corn fodder from ethanol production there has to be cheap feed. Did you read about lacing corn fodder with lime to make it more digestible? I survived the last big drought here by feeding cotton gin waste. Others forfeited several prior years worth of savings by buying out of state hay. I only have 16 days worth of stored feed but I have decided to remain in the cattle business so I am now in the process of locating a used recyclable metal building to use to store hay that I hope to never use. I will buy the hay as it is cheaper than making it. Admittedly I am not in the position to best determine what you can do to create a competitive edge but you are! Approach the task from a non conventional manner and you may find the answer if more obvious than you first imagined. Here are a few things I was told that would not work...I only worm young cattle and cows that show evidence of coarse hair or lack of thriftiness....I calve year round...... I never wean calves, I just send them to market and wean on the trailer, buyers will not pay for conditioning........I do not sell calves seasonally, I sell ~4 times per year, the cash flow is better and I never sell all the calves when the market is low or high, I should get an average for the year......my herd is closed, I do not vaccinate, this could be a mistake......I buy no commercial fertilizer, use chicken litter instead.....I do not use a vet, If I cannot correct the problem, I bury it....If a cow has a problem calving, regardless of the reason or the value of the cow she is culled. I run one mature bull on 100 females......the bull remains with the herd, all animals are in the same herd ........ no supplement is fed, grass and clover only.......I get by on 1.4 acres /cow and her calf all year, was told I would have to have hay......etc.
You need another bull. 
circlew
Well-known member
Most folks around here who farm for a living have chicken houses. My uncle has 12 broiler houses and 75 brood cows. He says that if it wasn't for the cows he would need a part time job. I think you need a spouse with a good job and you need something else to go along with the cows, be it chickens, goats, sheep, row crop, produce, baling hay, or like a couple fellows around here build fences.
bigbluegrass
Well-known member
TennesseeTuxedo":2og8zgzm said:You need another bull.
The one he has is the luckiest bull I know. He has a full time job for sure :hide:
agmantoo":2og8zgzm said:
agmantoo - I have heard you say it before, but what do you think you have per calf in operating costs? I think I could live on $40k per year pretty easy - but the wife may need to get a job so she could buy all her "stuff" :lol: :lol: :lol: :hide: :secret:
agmantoo
Well-known member
bigbluegrass
I keep rather close record of all my cattle expenses. Realize the farm taxes are low, I buy minerals, some diesel, ear tags, a few fencing materials, limited machinery parts, no labor, etc. These expenses when totaled, divided by the selling price of calves marketed are too low to post as no one here will believe the results. Could we suffice by saying that after I sold my 6 best steers in this high market I became profitable for the year?
I keep rather close record of all my cattle expenses. Realize the farm taxes are low, I buy minerals, some diesel, ear tags, a few fencing materials, limited machinery parts, no labor, etc. These expenses when totaled, divided by the selling price of calves marketed are too low to post as no one here will believe the results. Could we suffice by saying that after I sold my 6 best steers in this high market I became profitable for the year?
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
TennesseeTuxedo":2g4hb14b said:
Fertilizer. Tractor fuel. Truck fuel. Fencing - include neighbor's bulls 5 pastures over wrecking fences. Equipment, minerals, innocualtions. Hay cost even if you bale your own. I don't see $160K in expenses but I know what fertilizer costs and it is a killer. If you don't take care of the pastures, you're going to lose - eventually one way or another you'll lose.
$1.50 per pound will not last forever. This is a pipe dream and a great time to be on the other end.
Head out west and round up some longhorns. Drive 'em north to kansas and sell them at the rail head.
dieselbeef
Well-known member
do ya wanna live a life or just work a a rancher to break even...always something happening or needing..or wanting for that matter...whole lotta making 40k profit talk but im not thinkin a whole lot of us actually live on less than 40k ..cept those with the bare minimum ranch..paid for by dad or granpa...gotta have less than 35% exp in yer lifestyle no matter what it hapens to be
bigbluegrass
Well-known member
agmantoo":t21d98qo said:
Thanks agmantoo! I do believe you and I do think it can be done. I am not there yet, but I am working on it.
ohiosteve
Well-known member
I agree with you JS and have similar goals. But I think It would be impossible for someone who has no cattle, no land, no equipment to just jump in and buy cattle and buy/rent ground and make it. I've been spending every extra penny to support my cattle habit and am now making small profit but not enough to live off without off-farm income. I hope in 10 yrs or so I will be able to live the dream without working off farm. I think hay sales will be a big part of it. $6 small bales to horse folks can surely turn profit.JSCATTLE":2pv7dki5 said:
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
JSCATTLE":3s677o02 said:
Money made elsewhere should not figure in to your cattle cost. A dentist could say he fixed enough teeth to pay for the land and fertilizer.
That's a good point boogie.
How about hay sold off the farm? Would that count?
How about hay sold off the farm? Would that count?
In my opinion If your in the cow buisness ou have to be in the hay buisness . They go hand in hand . I don't think you could start from scratch And make it . However as a retirement income I would be fine . When it's just me and the wife a 1400 sf house will be plenty . With room for grand kids to stay a few days . I don't spend any money now and make over 120 k a year at my regular Job . My plan is to run cows until I'm to old starting around 50 . Then sell out and move into an apartment the last few years. . But it all depends on if your happy sitting on the porch watching the chickens peck or you want to go to the mall and shop everyday . As for me I don't need much to make it .
SRBeef
Well-known member
This is a very interesting discussion about a question that really has no one answer. The answer depends on where you are, what exactly you are selling (most replies seem to assume cow/calf selling the calves at the sale barn at weaning), etc...
Most also assume that the land/house/fences/well is/has been paid for by other income.
A number I have read from several universities is that it costs $500/year to own a cow. It looks to me like that is fairly accurate, whether you raise hay, buy hay, carry additional land to stockpile forage... in the end it comes down to about $500/yr/cow. Add maybe $150 for the calf. Total is about $650 annually to get to a 600 lb 205 day calf in the fall.
Selling that calf at $1.50 at the sale barn grosses $900.
If you accept this then $900 income - $650 expense = $250./cow per year net income.
Then if you figure what income you need to live on, divide by $250 and thats the number of cows you need. If that number is $50,000 to pay real estate taxes and living expenses, then you need 200 cows.
But the sticking point here is what is the carrying capacity of your land? If it takes 5 acres/cow-pair then you need 1000 acres of paid up land to make $50,000 income from your 200 cows. :shock:
Depending on the cost of land in your 5a/pr area, that land is likely now in the price range of $2,000/a. So 1,000a of $2,000 land = $2 million dollars of land to make $50,000 ??? :shock: :shock:
Unless you just won the lottery, I think there are few people that can really go this route.
So it seems to me most folks would have to change some of the above. But there are only a few variables to work with. You need more income per cow and higher carrying capacity per acre.
I think this is where Agmantoo comes in along with rotational grazing and looking at much higher carrying capacity and looking at selling a different end product rather than just loading up the calves to the sale barn...
Interesting and thought provoking.
Jim
Most also assume that the land/house/fences/well is/has been paid for by other income.
A number I have read from several universities is that it costs $500/year to own a cow. It looks to me like that is fairly accurate, whether you raise hay, buy hay, carry additional land to stockpile forage... in the end it comes down to about $500/yr/cow. Add maybe $150 for the calf. Total is about $650 annually to get to a 600 lb 205 day calf in the fall.
Selling that calf at $1.50 at the sale barn grosses $900.
If you accept this then $900 income - $650 expense = $250./cow per year net income.
Then if you figure what income you need to live on, divide by $250 and thats the number of cows you need. If that number is $50,000 to pay real estate taxes and living expenses, then you need 200 cows.
But the sticking point here is what is the carrying capacity of your land? If it takes 5 acres/cow-pair then you need 1000 acres of paid up land to make $50,000 income from your 200 cows. :shock:
Depending on the cost of land in your 5a/pr area, that land is likely now in the price range of $2,000/a. So 1,000a of $2,000 land = $2 million dollars of land to make $50,000 ??? :shock: :shock:
Unless you just won the lottery, I think there are few people that can really go this route.
So it seems to me most folks would have to change some of the above. But there are only a few variables to work with. You need more income per cow and higher carrying capacity per acre.
I think this is where Agmantoo comes in along with rotational grazing and looking at much higher carrying capacity and looking at selling a different end product rather than just loading up the calves to the sale barn...
Interesting and thought provoking.
Jim
dieselbeef
Well-known member
well someones doin it..............................................lots o people
