Here's food for thought

[Warren Allison]

I've raised several, and bought several, both registered and commercial.
Like somebody already said in a comment, there is a cull factor with both.
Seems to me that it's higher culling with purchased animals both heifers and cows than when you retain heifers.
To me there's too much variation across the board, anybody would just have to plug in their own figures. There's expense to both.
When you buy, it's luck of the draw, even if buying from a reliable source.
When you retain it's still somewhat of risk because they don't all turn out, but hopefully a higher percentage will stay in the herd longer. Those animals that you know you can track progress and build on it.

Agree with everything you say, and you have a specific goal in mind for what you are doing with your home raised cows and bulls. And a damned good job of it too. But still, IF you ran a commercial herd to sell calves every year..british, continentals and various and sundry mixes of the 2... and IF it did cost you the $3100 chart the says it takes to get the 1st calf from your retained heifer. And if you did buy some $1500 heifers or $2k bred cows and had to cull a couple, you'd still be money ahead IF your goal is to raise a calf to sell every year. At sale barns across the country today, there are cows or heifers sold as good or better than any we could raise.

I also understand that the bottom line is not the do-all end-all reason a lot of people raise cattle. Personal satisfaction in what a man does or creates often has an intangible value that transcends market value. All I am saying is, if a person does retain heifers at that $3100 cost, they could undeniably buy one as good or better for less money, and with quicker returns. Some people do not track these costs, or it really doesn't matter to them..they would just rather raise their own. But so many who don't track, think they can raise replacements cheaper than they can buy them.

 

[SBMF 2015]

I have always said that you can sell your heifer calves and buy as good or better a cow or heifer for way less money than you can raise one. A heifer born today will take 2 and 1/2 years, 30 months, till fall of 2025, before you have a weaned calf to sell. It just doesn't pan out for a commercial cow/calf operation. Pure bred, registered stock producers, of course, are the exception. I think this chart is a little off, because it should have added the cost of what you could have sold the heifer for. Let's say you could have sold her for $1000. so the first line would be $3000-$3100, and the 2nd line would be $3800 - $4k. You can buy the damnedest, best commercial cow you have ever seen, 7+ months bred, for $4k and have a whole lot of money left in your pocket. As far as that goes, you can buy a registered heavy bred cow for that.

4k yes, but there have been a bunch of top end commercial cows sold this winter that started with a 3 when the gavel fell.

It usually takes at least 2 fdr hfrs around here to buy a good bred cow

 

[Brute 23]

That's a good starting place. Every one should spreadsheet their expenses and check the market in their area. Every... single... operation... is going to be different.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

You guys are confusing me. Did any of you LOOK at the link he posted? There are 3 pages in the linked spreadsheet. Look at the 2nd page (little tabs on bottom of sheet). Everything in this guys spreadsheet shows RAISING is more profitable than BUYING.
Also, I'm surprised noone is talking about the $5000 bull - spread over 4 years - spread over 25 calves. This is reality.
The cost to raise the heifer is NOT $3100 - based on this guys spreadsheets. You can't calculate a heifers cost to raise - if you sold her. So, you do not put a cull value on her at that time.

 

[Brute 23]

You guys are confusing me. Did any of you LOOK at the link he posted? There are 3 pages in the linked spreadsheet. Look at the 2nd page (little tabs on bottom of sheet). Everything in this guys spreadsheet shows RAISING is more profitable than BUYING.
Also, I'm surprised noone is talking about the $5000 bull - spread over 4 years - spread over 25 calves. This is reality.
The cost to raise the heifer is NOT $3100 - based on this guys spreadsheets. You can't calculate a heifers cost to raise - if you sold her. So, you do not put a cull value on her at that time.

I don't feel crazy now. I just glanced at it on my phone and did not see the $3100 or any thing else that was being discussed. I just bit my tongue until I could pull it up later on my computer... thought I was missing some thing.

 

[Otha]

You guys are confusing me. Did any of you LOOK at the link he posted? There are 3 pages in the linked spreadsheet. Look at the 2nd page (little tabs on bottom of sheet). Everything in this guys spreadsheet shows RAISING is more profitable than BUYING.
Also, I'm surprised noone is talking about the $5000 bull - spread over 4 years - spread over 25 calves. This is reality.
The cost to raise the heifer is NOT $3100 - based on this guys spreadsheets. You can't calculate a heifers cost to raise - if you sold her. So, you do not put a cull value on her at that time.

I can't make the link work for some reason.
Do you put a value on the lost income from keeping a heifer vs selling her a weaning time? That would be the opportunity cost of keeping her. Maybe that cost doesn't belong in this spreadsheet but it belongs somewhere I would think.
I think the value of the culls from doing it either way needs to be added into the equation. I've raised some heifers I am really proud of. I've also never lost money selling culls from the groups of cows i've bought. If I buy 20 cows for a pasture about half of them will have their 3rd cow for me in that pasture. The rest will have been sold for what ever reason when packer prices are good enough to get the money for her and her feed bill back.

 

[1982vett]

You guys are confusing me. Did any of you LOOK at the link he posted? There are 3 pages in the linked spreadsheet. Look at the 2nd page (little tabs on bottom of sheet). Everything in this guys spreadsheet shows RAISING is more profitable than BUYING.
Also, I'm surprised noone is talking about the $5000 bull - spread over 4 years - spread over 25 calves. This is reality.
The cost to raise the heifer is NOT $3100 - based on this guys spreadsheets. You can't calculate a heifers cost to raise - if you sold her. So, you do not put a cull value on her at that time.

Nope, didn't see the other pages....however they did make my eyes glaze over trying to follow along.

 

[alacowman1]

Lord willing .. Unless something doesn't change..and I run into a "cant pass it up deal" I'll never buy another replacement female.I haven't in at least 30 years now..money always goes towards buying a better herd Bull..

 

[anewcomer]

The man who has had more experience than anybody else in the cattle business at picking heifers to retain, Burke Teichert, says that heifers breeding early in their first breeding season is the #1 factor in making a productive cow. These heifers will outlast any visual or genetic scrutiny. He advocates retaining a high percentage of the heifer calf crop, breeding for 21-30 days, and retaining those heifers, detected by blood test 30 days after bulls are removed. Opens are sold as feeders.

 

[anewcomer]

Burke also feels that smaller herds, maybe less than 300 head, should not consider retaining heifers, but buying in cows. Keeping heifers away from bulls, growing them separately, breeding to a calving ease bulls, added nutrition after first calf, etc. are but of the few many special management adjustments that must be made.

 

[Warren Allison]

You guys are confusing me. Did any of you LOOK at the link he posted? There are 3 pages in the linked spreadsheet. Look at the 2nd page (little tabs on bottom of sheet). Everything in this guys spreadsheet shows RAISING is more profitable than BUYING.
Also, I'm surprised noone is talking about the $5000 bull - spread over 4 years - spread over 25 calves. This is reality.
The cost to raise the heifer is NOT $3100 - based on this guys spreadsheets. You can't calculate a heifers cost to raise - if you sold her. So, you do not put a cull value on her at that time.

The very last line on the spreadsheet,in yellow, says " cost to 1st calf is $2882". At the bottom of the post is this.
Cost to take a heifer from weaned to Bred, between $2000 and $2100
Cost to take her to weaning her first calf, between $2800 and $3000
I just realized, Jeanne, that these are YOUR costs. not part of the report, and I apologize. So take any of those 2 figures in bold, or the $2882 from the report . The 1st bold is cost from weaned to bred, 2nd in bold is cost from weaning her to weaning her 1st calf. The %2882 is the cost from weaning to 1st calf is born. So my question was, for commercial cattle, could you not take the cost at either of the three stages $2100 or $2882 or $3000, and buy a replacement and have a calf in 9 months( if she was open) instead of the 24 months before the one you raise has a calf at 2 years old. and yes, I think the value of the heifer at weaning should be figured in. You decide not spend the $2882 raising her, so you have $2882 to go heifer shopping. But if you sold her for $1000, then you would have $3882 to go replacement shopping with.

EVryone;s situation is different. There are some situations where...and again talking about commercial...you could raise one to 1st calf cheaper than you could buy one, but most of the time you can buy one as cheap or cheaper, and get that 1st calf a lot sooner. Hell, in the situation I am in with the corr x Brangus operation, raising a heifer makes sense. We buy Corr cows for $250, to breed to mostly Brangus bulls. We use a Corr clean up bull , and out of our 100 cows you usually average 2-3 missed and having a Corr calf a month later. One year we had 10, the last year none, but about 2 or so average a year. If one of them is a heifer we will usually keep it. We have ZERO inputs, other than a couple hundred lbs of salt and minerals a year. So yeah, like the 4 that just calved at 23 months old, we have nothing money wise or labor wise in them. Might could have sold them at weaning for $150 and put $100 with it and bought another cow, and been money ahead and a year earlier making it. Those four 2021s that just calved? If I had sold them and bought four, I would have had four $750 calves born a few days ago. Now it will be Sept before they have them, and March of 2024 before I sell the first black calf off them.

 

[gcreekrch]

You guys are confusing me. Did any of you LOOK at the link he posted? There are 3 pages in the linked spreadsheet. Look at the 2nd page (little tabs on bottom of sheet). Everything in this guys spreadsheet shows RAISING is more profitable than BUYING.
Also, I'm surprised noone is talking about the $5000 bull - spread over 4 years - spread over 25 calves. This is reality.
The cost to raise the heifer is NOT $3100 - based on this guys spreadsheets. You can't calculate a heifers cost to raise - if you sold her. So, you do not put a cull value on her at that time.

Randi is a girl.
A woman if you will, she was once on Ranchers Net under the name Randiliana.

 

[gcreekrch]

The man who has had more experience than anybody else in the cattle business at picking heifers to retain, Burke Teichert, says that heifers breeding early in their first breeding season is the #1 factor in making a productive cow. These heifers will outlast any visual or genetic scrutiny. He advocates retaining a high percentage of the heifer calf crop, breeding for 21-30 days, and retaining those heifers, detected by blood test 30 days after bulls are removed. Opens are sold as feeders.

Pretty much what we do, minus the blood test and we leave the bulls in 35 days. Most years we are 80%+ done in 30 days on whole herd. The opens are growing and making money on grass while we are waiting 60 days to test with an ultrasound.

We buy and sell a lot of cows, most of the females that stay the longest in our herd have our calf brand on them.

 

[Dave]

I have paid about the same dollars for BM cows who are all 7 or 8 months as top of the line open heifer who will be breeding size this spring. They will have calves 2 or 3 months before those heifers would even be bred. I could buy real good full mouth bred cows for about $500 more per head. How much is that calf born in a month or two worth?

 

[mwj]

The very last line on the spreadsheet,in yellow, says " cost to 1st calf is $2882". At the bottom of the post is this.
Cost to take a heifer from weaned to Bred, between $2000 and $2100
Cost to take her to weaning her first calf, between $2800 and $3000
I just realized, Jeanne, that these are YOUR costs. not part of the report, and I apologize. So take any of those 2 figures in bold, or the $2882 from the report . The 1st bold is cost from weaned to bred, 2nd in bold is cost from weaning her to weaning her 1st calf. The %2882 is the cost from weaning to 1st calf is born. So my question was, for commercial cattle, could you not take the cost at either of the three stages $2100 or $2882 or $3000, and buy a replacement and have a calf in 9 months( if she was open) instead of the 24 months before the one you raise has a calf at 2 years old. and yes, I think the value of the heifer at weaning should be figured in. You decide not spend the $2882 raising her, so you have $2882 to go heifer shopping. But if you sold her for $1000, then you would have $3882 to go replacement shopping with.

EVryone;s situation is different. There are some situations where...and again talking about commercial...you could raise one to 1st calf cheaper than you could buy one, but most of the time you can buy one as cheap or cheaper, and get that 1st calf a lot sooner. Hell, in the situation I am in with the corr x Brangus operation, raising a heifer makes sense. We buy Corr cows for $250, to breed to mostly Brangus bulls. We use a Corr clean up bull , and out of our 100 cows you usually average 2-3 missed and having a Corr calf a month later. One year we had 10, the last year none, but about 2 or so average a year. If one of them is a heifer we will usually keep it. We have ZERO inputs, other than a couple hundred lbs of salt and minerals a year. So yeah, like the 4 that just calved at 23 months old, we have nothing money wise or labor wise in them. Might could have sold them at weaning for $150 and put $100 with it and bought another cow, and been money ahead and a year earlier making it. Those four 2021s that just calved? If I had sold them and bought four, I would have had four $750 calves born a few days ago. Now it will be Sept before they have them, and March of 2024 before I sell the first black calf off them.

What was your recent post about your partner? feeding hay and taming the famous mexicanxfightingbull cows?

Do we all drive 50 hours for replacements because it is not worth our time to raise our own.

I think there is a lot of ''selective memory'' in this thread.

 

[TCRanch]

Lord willing .. Unless something doesn't change..and I run into a "cant pass it up deal" I'll never buy another replacement female.I haven't in at least 30 years now..money always goes towards buying a better herd Bull..

This! Every cow I now have was born & raised on this ranch. The heifers I retain are from my best cows that consistently calve within the first few weeks of the season and have good feet, udders, attitudes, raise quality calves. I know their entire health history, have them pelvic measured and breed them to calving ease bulls. What is that worth?

 

[simme]

Randi is in Canada. Are those Canadian dollars?

 

[Brute 23]

What was your recent post about your partner? feeding hay and taming the famous mexicanxfightingbull cows?

Do we all drive 50 hours for replacements because it is not worth our time to raise our own.

I think there is a lot of ''selective memory'' in this thread.

There is a lot of selective memory in all his threads.

 

[Brute 23]

I've bought cows in a pinch but prefer to retain heifers. My costs don't add up to any where near what is shown here. The idea that because you are a commercial producer you should not retain is nonsense. Land you have to work with, costs, and general experience with cattle play a bigger role, Imo.

This has been debated in debth many times before but I put a price on the heifer at weaning (6-8 mo) based off what the others sold for that didn't get kept.

Then I have the period from weaning to being bred. (8-10 mo)

For us, once that heifer is put in with a bull she is out of the heifer category. She is now an operating cow. Her expenses will be charged against her calf like all the other producing cows. Our heifers don't get special treatment though either.

In the example where one would not breed, which is extremely rare for us on retained animals, I would take her cost at the time, subtract what ever she brings for salvage, and divide it amongst the group. Same would be for a complete loss or any thing that gets culled. On the culled heifers though, that can go either way because it is not uncommon for me to PT heifers I don't want and make money on them. Even going to the AB with big heifers I'm generally right at break even or a tad more.

The key for us to retain the heifers at a reasonable price is having heifer properties. I'll take a small lease in the right area just for that purpose. The heifers develope better, naturally and it's far cheaper. Also, our cost to winter heifers is extremely low between their nutritional needs and our weather.

 

[Ebenezer]

I am curious if the cost of diseases purchased in replacements and sale barn cattle need to be in added to the cost of purchased cattle?