Heartbroken, lost my bull (dead) at the feed test!

[DOC HARRIS]

Cormac-

Doc, regarding me being a female, my brother and a friend both said you are right. We had a good laugh. The reality is that I am not, I am a 6'4", 270 pound male, with a 40 waist (no belly).

Son-of-a-gun! That is the SECOND time in my life that I have been wrong! I guess I am REALLY getting old! But as long as Ruthie (my little wife) is happy, I guess I can put up with me.

But - back on the subject at hand: I urge you to not give up on testing. That is the best way that we have of PROVING whether or not our protocols are worth the effort and money to continue. Otherwise, we just slide back into the "old methods" of "eyeballing them cows" and bragging about how good our methods are - - and then wondering why our calves and THEIR calves are not doing what we have expected them to do.

DOC HARRIS

 

[pdfangus]

Well in my opinion.....That and a dollar might buy a cup of coffee in a cheap joint.

Anyone at a college test station that discourages preconditioning before comingling needs to experience steering and be relocated to a feedlot themself.

here we precondition before going to an association feeder calf sale.

 

[djinwa]

Man, I'd be pursuing this further. I know nothing about test stations, but shouldn't they have something in writing they can give people as to recommendations/requirements? If they don't, I'd request they put something in writing - explaining what their feeding program is, and what you need to do to prepare your animal for it. Would be interesting if you could share that with us.

If they put the bulls right onto much grain without phase-in, seems like malpractice to me if they don't forewarn people. This is supposed to be a college?! Aren't colleges about educating people? Is it too much trouble to spend 3 minutes writing a one-page fact sheet they could hand out? What am I missig here?

 

[TheBullLady]

Cormac.. I am also very sorry for your loss.. how incredibly frustrating, especially since you made the decision to send your best. I agree.. I don't think anyone can/will take care of my cattle as well as I will myself.

Having said that, I am also concerned that no one suggested they be preconditioned. We consigned to TX A & M's "Ranch to Rail" program for a few years when it first started, and we were given an list of requirements for anything that was consigned.. including being on feed. In fact, they even required the producer to state what kind / type / frequency of feed the animals were receiving. We never lost any there, although I do know of people that did lose some to sickness, which of course is more likely when you comingle calves with other ranches that perhaps don't have the same health requirements as you do!

Sorry for your loss. Those programs are generally very good ones, and very good knowledge for a producer to have on his cattle.

 

[Alan]

If you were taking a bull to a feed/grain test and you had never given him grain, most of the responsiblity for his death could arguably be yours.

How long was the warm-up period?


Sorry for your loss but you have learned a valuable lesson.

Better yet, he shared his experience with US so that anybody reading these boards will be warned not to make the same mistake. It is a whole lot easier to learn by reading than by gambling with your own money.

I too am sorry for your loss and some of us have learned something through your bad experience that may save us a valuble loss down the road... thanks for sharing.

Brandonm22, I couldn't have said it better, great point.
Alan

 

[ALX.]

What amazes me is that someone has epd's whiz banging wither nither but doesn't have a clue on feeding cattle??
The basic beginner section in Storey's guide has enough info in it to set off alarm bells in anyones head about what happens when diet is changed.

Totally duped by this "test station"? C'mon.

Cormack, you better hook up with some other purebred folks, maybe get ahold of pdf in pm's or do something because you may have just lost a lot of money through ignorance. On who's part only matters on whether it hapens again.

 

[djinwa]

If you were taking a bull to a feed/grain test and you had never given him grain, most of the responsiblity for his death could arguably be yours.

How long was the warm-up period?


Sorry for your loss but you have learned a valuable lesson.

Better yet, he shared his experience with US so that anybody reading these boards will be warned not to make the same mistake. It is a whole lot easier to learn by reading than by gambling with your own money.

I too am sorry for your loss and some of us have learned something through your bad experience that may save us a valuble loss down the road... thanks for sharing.

Brandonm22, I couldn't have said it better, great point.
Alan

Okay, I'm alittle obsessive-compulsive, so I'm going to beat this a bit harder.

Alan and Brandon, you say it's nice that he can share his experience so we don't make the same mistake? That is how the system is supposed to work? Test station doesn't need to educate their customers, bulls die, owners "learn a valuable lesson", share their experience on Cattle Today and all is good?
Huh????

BullLady, that makes more sense - a list of requirements, and asking what feeding program they were on.

 

[Alan]

Okay, I'm alittle obsessive-compulsive, so I'm going to beat this a bit harder.

Alan and Brandon, you say it's nice that he can share his experience so we don't make the same mistake? That is how the system is supposed to work? Test station doesn't need to educate their customers, bulls die, owners "learn a valuable lesson", share their experience on Cattle Today and all is good?
Huh????

Sorry, I'm completly missing your point. Yes it is common knowledge for most that you don't start cattle or horses on large rations of grain, they need to build up to it. So yes, it should be common sense to start the bulls before going to test station, but mistakes happen to us ALL. And yes, the test station should be professional enough to educate thier paying customers on what needs to be done before a bull arrives and after they leave.

But to your point, are you saying this loss should not have been posted on the boards..... isn't this what these boards are about, sharing info and asking question?

Maybe your point flew right by without me catching it... that happens a bit.

Alan

 

[Frankie]

Some Angus bloodlines are more likely to bloat, too. When a now-large Angus operation here in OK started out, they bought out an established Angus show herd. They started testing bulls at our test station. I kept noticing that they were pulling bulls off the test and an unusually high rate. When we were picking up bulls from a test, I asked one of the guys working at the station why. He said they were bloating. After a few tests, he claimed that he could look at the pedigree of a bull from that operation and know whether he was likely to bloat or not. I don't know if any actually died though.

 

[ALX.]

Some Angus bloodlines are more likely to bloat, too. When a now-large Angus operation here in OK started out, they bought out an established Angus show herd. They started testing bulls at our test station. I kept noticing that they were pulling bulls off the test and an unusually high rate. When we were picking up bulls from a test, I asked one of the guys working at the station why. He said they were bloating. After a few tests, he claimed that he could look at the pedigree of a bull from that operation and know whether he was likely to bloat or not. I don't know if any actually died though.

B freakin S

 

[Frankie]

Some Angus bloodlines are more likely to bloat, too. When a now-large Angus operation here in OK started out, they bought out an established Angus show herd. They started testing bulls at our test station. I kept noticing that they were pulling bulls off the test and an unusually high rate. When we were picking up bulls from a test, I asked one of the guys working at the station why. He said they were bloating. After a few tests, he claimed that he could look at the pedigree of a bull from that operation and know whether he was likely to bloat or not. I don't know if any actually died though.

B freakin S

Why?

 

[dun]

Twice a year a number of producers comingle their calves, 150-200 head. All of the claves are pre-conditioned on a similar ration for 45-60, backgrounded for a month or 2 depending on the market and the wieghts and numbers then shipped to feedlots. There are usaully death loses from bloat, pneumonia, etc. at each stage.
Even with the best managment, it happens.

 

[ALX.]

Some Angus bloodlines are more likely to bloat, too. When a now-large Angus operation here in OK started out, they bought out an established Angus show herd. They started testing bulls at our test station. I kept noticing that they were pulling bulls off the test and an unusually high rate. When we were picking up bulls from a test, I asked one of the guys working at the station why. He said they were bloating. After a few tests, he claimed that he could look at the pedigree of a bull from that operation and know whether he was likely to bloat or not. I don't know if any actually died though.

B freakin S

Why?

My question too Frankie. This thread has me just vibrating at times when I think of it, and not to lay blame per say, but MAN I see a lot of ignorance when it comes to feed. I am no expert, but when you put a fence around them you make a contract to treat them right.

Are we saying some cattle have different sized organs to produce digestive agents in certain bloodlines or is it a home farm thing that somehow spreads out because of sales patterns?

Almost sounds more environmental than genetic, or more political than scientific?

 

[ALX.]

Twice a year a number of producers comingle their calves, 150-200 head. All of the claves are pre-conditioned on a similar ration for 45-60, backgrounded for a month or 2 depending on the market and the wieghts and numbers then shipped to feedlots. There are usaully death loses from bloat, pneumonia, etc. at each stage.
Even with the best managment, it happens.

Not to argue a small point dun but a test station is different than a lot. You are paying for the management of YOUR animal, above what a feedlot charges if you retain ownership.

I have seen figures that show a slide of expected death loss on a high protein feed where a certain number can go ahead and die because the hot feed will put that many more pounds on the survivors.

I can't buy that. Bloat has got to be a rotten way to go.

 

[Frankie]

My question too Frankie. This thread has me just vibrating at times when I think of it, and not to lay blame per say, but MAN I see a lot of ignorance when it comes to feed. I am no expert, but when you put a fence around them you make a contract to treat them right.

Are we saying some cattle have different sized organs to produce digestive agents in certain bloodlines or is it a home farm thing that somehow spreads out because of sales patterns?

Almost sounds more environmental than genetic, or more political than scientific?

I'll try to sort this out? Are you asking me why certain bloodlines would be more likely to bloat? I don't have a clue. But every trait is heritable. Genetically you are made up of what your mom and dad passed on to you. The number one risk factor in cancer is if anyone in your family had it. That doesn't mean we (or our bulls) are slaves to our genetic make up. But if your family has a history lung cancer, you probably shouldn't smoke.

By knowing which bloodlines were subject to bloat, I would assume the guys working at the test station could keep a closer eye on those bulls and the owners could adjust their breeding program to stop reproducing those cattle.

 

[ALX.]

By knowing which bloodlines were subject to bloat, I would assume the guys working at the test station could keep a closer eye on those bulls and the owners could adjust their breeding program to stop reproducing those cattle.

Bloat EPDS? :lol: :lol:

Any animal can be made to bloat, in less than a half day. It is a condition of the gut. Cancer is a disease. It WILL appear in certain families at a certain rate.

Are conditions of the gut that heriditary?

And not to be too paranoid, but if a certain feedlot had ties to a certain breeder, maybe saying a certain competitors offspring bloated would line some pockets?

 

[dun]

Twice a year a number of producers comingle their calves, 150-200 head. All of the claves are pre-conditioned on a similar ration for 45-60, backgrounded for a month or 2 depending on the market and the wieghts and numbers then shipped to feedlots. There are usaully death loses from bloat, pneumonia, etc. at each stage.
Even with the best managment, it happens.

Not to argue a small point dun but a test station is different than a lot. You are paying for the management of YOUR animal, above what a feedlot charges if you retain ownership.

I have seen figures that show a slide of expected death loss on a high protein feed where a certain number can go ahead and die because the hot feed will put that many more pounds on the survivors.

I can't buy that. Bloat has got to be a rotten way to go.

The calves either at the backgrounder or the feedlot have relatively close supervision. The bad thing about bloat is it can kill in a matter of a few minutes. It depends on the severity of it.
Cattle bloat and die at home too, probably more do there then do in bulltest stations, feedlots, backgorunders, etc., combined.

 

[MikeC]

Acidosis is a prerequisite for feed/grain bloating in cattle. An acid neutralizing saliva is a natural defense mechanism against acidosis.

If there is not enough calcium in an animals system the saliva cannot have the neutralizing effect needed to offset the low PH rumen scenario as when acidosis/bloat occurs. This is why Baking Soda is added to the feed in some bull tests.

In short, Calcium helps offset bloat but it does not get in the animals system overnight. If pasture forages are low in calcium and a good palatable mineral is not fed, the animal does not build the calcium reserves needed for production of the neutralizing saliva.

Good clean, fresh drinking water aids in saliva production also. Our bull test does not use tank troughs, nor are they placed in the sun, just to promote water intake.

I'm sure there are some minute genetic predispositions to bloat also.

It all boils down to management before......and after cattle go on feed.

 

[Cormac]

I did not want to sound helpless in this post, I was just bitterly disappointed/saddened as this was the first good bull I raised and my first opportunity to sell a good bull (profit) or keep him as a clean-up bull. When trying to find him, I did notice the water tank and felt it was more suited to bass (weeds/algea) than a water source. And I know in trying to help him they ran a hose down his throat, I can only hope it ended in the right pipe.
In hindsight, I should have started him on feed. I won't make that mistake again.
As far as the test sit is concerned is concernedI have some issues:
1) Not insisting that some pre-feeding is required.
2)During a 21 day warm up to just allow them absolute free choice. I am not sure I can see a difference between the actual warm up period and the actual test other than weighing them more.
3) Piss-poor water source.
4) Why no vet was called out.
5) why was I not notified as I would have gotten the vet. The calf had difficulty breathing Friday afternoon, the got him up in a pen, treated him, hosed him, and he was dead Sunday.
6) Why I never got the courtesy of a phone call informing me of the death? I had to go there on Sunday afternoon as I knew something was not right. It was at that point I was told. He told me they were going to send a letter. #&@%(

I have no love for lawyers (and have 2 in the family ), nor am I involving one. One of them deals in doctor's malpractice. I never liked that, but it certainly make the doctors accountable about what takes place around there practice. I get the impression at this test facility (and possibly others) that animal death due to bloat is just one of those things that is going to take place and that is acceptable. With proper management I would think that would be greatly reduced.
I am out a few thousand in this scenario, for the test site, it is still business as usual. What are they out? I paid $65 for the test and $100 up front for feed. He never made the test and I have yet seen a check back to me and a week has passed. This just adds insult to injury.

 

[ALX.]

I did not want to sound helpless in this post,

Cormac, once something gets posted, and the old bulls start butting heads, thats where the information that helps us all comes out. This thread could have ended with a bunch of "sorry you lost your bull" too bad , so sad, or go the way it has gone with some issues being knocked around.

What happened to you sux large. Wasn't right. I have had to use a bloat tube on one calf in 6 years, but I tubed that calf 3 times in 2 days. Another sign maybe these guys didn't really care about your animal.