Has anyone ever done this?

[HOSS]

The breeder that I bought my bull from has asked me if I would be interested in supplying the momma cows for his pure bred business. What he is offering is to implant his embryos of pure bred Gelbvieh and Balancers into my commercial cows. Once the calves are weaned he will pay per pound what the top selling price is at that time (average top price of the three area feeder calf sales) plus a 100.00 per head premium on each calf and he will come pick them up. Has anyone gone this route with breeders and what were the risks? The money sounds good as it will be more than I get at the sale. If I were to do this I would only use my cows that are proven easy calvers to avoid the problems of not knowing what combo is in the embryo as far as BW etc.. Of course through all of this I would be responsible for creep feeding, hay, meds etc. until the calves are weened. Right now I do not creep feed so that would be an added expense over what I currently do. Everything else would remain the same. Is this something that is common in other places? It is not done much around here.

 

[TREY-L]

Sounds like a win ~ win situation, I wish someone would approach me with the same offer. If you decide to do it, I would get everything in writing, he would also have to bear responsibility if any complications were to arise from the implant procedure.

Just some thoughts.
Trey

 

[HOSS]

Sounds like a win ~ win situation, I wish someone would approach me with the same offer. If you decide to do it, I would get everything in writing, he would also have to bear responsibility if any complications were to arise from the implant procedure.

Just some thoughts.
Trey

Trey, I see you are from God's Country - NW Alabama. I was born in Florence......it is good to know that I too am one of His

 

[Jogeephus]

I had one approach me about doing this a couple of years ago. I knew the breeder personally and by reputation. Because of this I declined. There is no such thing as a win/win deal with this particular breeder.

 

[HOSS]

I had one approach me about doing this a couple of years ago. I knew the breeder personally and by reputation. Because of this I declined. There is no such thing as a win/win deal with this particular breeder.

Joe, this breeder has a good reputation and has treated me well with my bull purchase. It almost sounds too good to be true. I am just wondering if the creep feeding will eat up the extra profit. I am not sure how to judge creep feeding costs since I have not done any except with my bull to ease him down from it after I purchased him.

 

[Jogeephus]

If all you gotta do is creep feed you should stay in the black since the additional weight gain should be worth more than the cost of feed assuming you can buy in bulk.

I recently had a breeder offer me something I'm tempted to do. He has offered his bulls free of charge to put on my cows. I then am to wean and precondition them as normal and get paid the top dollar at the sales barn with no fees based on the weight in the field. He will sell them at his private barn that is advertised in some magazines and such. He gets to keep the difference.

 

[EAT BEEF]

I guess he's going to take care of the e.t. work on the cows.Such as setting them up and doing the implanting? One thing to think about is that alot of them might not take and then your cows could be all out of sync for your calving season.Guys that that have recipe herds make alot more than what he is offering but they do all the reproductive work.What if creep feed goes way up,and if it does your base (calf prices) may go down.You still have to keep a bull to catch the ones that don't take,or are not easy calvers. I don't think I would do it with my comm. cows unless I was doing the reproductive work and getting about a $900-$1,000 a calf.

 

[Frankie]

The breeder that I bought my bull from has asked me if I would be interested in supplying the momma cows for his pure bred business. What he is offering is to implant his embryos of pure bred Gelbvieh and Balancers into my commercial cows. Once the calves are weaned he will pay per pound what the top selling price is at that time (average top price of the three area feeder calf sales) plus a 100.00 per head premium on each calf and he will come pick them up. Has anyone gone this route with breeders and what were the risks? The money sounds good as it will be more than I get at the sale. If I were to do this I would only use my cows that are proven easy calvers to avoid the problems of not knowing what combo is in the embryo as far as BW etc.. Of course through all of this I would be responsible for creep feeding, hay, meds etc. until the calves are weened. Right now I do not creep feed so that would be an added expense over what I currently do. Everything else would remain the same. Is this something that is common in other places? It is not done much around here.

Gardiner Angus was the first I heard doing this. They ran out of land and started leasing their neighbor's cows to increase the numbers of cattle they had to sell every year. There were quite a few big Angus operations doing it. These days about 10% of the calves registered with the Angus Assn are embryo calves. I think it can be a win-win situation as long as everyone knows what's expected of them. A friend of ours lost some pretty high dollar embryos when the herd he leased wasn't maintained well.

http://ohioline.osu.edu/anr-fact/0017.html

 

[HOSS]

The breeder that I bought my bull from has asked me if I would be interested in supplying the momma cows for his pure bred business. What he is offering is to implant his embryos of pure bred Gelbvieh and Balancers into my commercial cows. Once the calves are weaned he will pay per pound what the top selling price is at that time (average top price of the three area feeder calf sales) plus a 100.00 per head premium on each calf and he will come pick them up. Has anyone gone this route with breeders and what were the risks? The money sounds good as it will be more than I get at the sale. If I were to do this I would only use my cows that are proven easy calvers to avoid the problems of not knowing what combo is in the embryo as far as BW etc.. Of course through all of this I would be responsible for creep feeding, hay, meds etc. until the calves are weened. Right now I do not creep feed so that would be an added expense over what I currently do. Everything else would remain the same. Is this something that is common in other places? It is not done much around here.

Gardiner Angus was the first I heard doing this. They ran out of land and started leasing their neighbor's cows to increase the numbers of cattle they had to sell every year. There were quite a few big Angus operations doing it. These days about 10% of the calves registered with the Angus Assn are embryo calves. I think it can be a win-win situation as long as everyone knows what's expected of them. A friend of ours lost some pretty high dollar embryos when the herd he leased wasn't maintained well.

http://ohioline.osu.edu/anr-fact/0017.html

Frankie, that is this breeders reason for soliciting. He only owns enough land for 150 momma cows of his own. He has grown to the point were he needs more cows to supply the demand. He also has his own annual sale that he needs animals available for. He does the embryo transfers himself so there would be no cost to me for that. After the transfers have taken place he says that I can wait a while and then turn my bull in to clean up the cows where the embryos don't take. That way I don't have cows missing a breeding season.

If I did it it would be next year since my cows have all been bred back this summer.

 

[bandit80]

It depends on you current operation, and if this would improve your current bottom line. If you are currently selling calves at weaning time, then you would be getting $100 more per head than you would otherwise. As long as the price of the feeder calves doesn't drop below the cost of gain from the creep, you won't lose money. However, you need to figure how much additional time it will take you to fill the feeders, etc.

As long as everything is in black and white, it could be a win win scenario for you. I might push for a little more than $100/hd, however.

 

[denoginnizer]

How old would he want the calves to be at weaning?

 

[bandit80]

Had a feller ask me to do that once. He wanted to pay to have the embryos implanted but wanted me to pay for the feed on the cows and any and all veterinary care that they or the calves might need. He was going to give me 900 dollars per calf at yearling time. I told him no thanks. I said I would do it if he would pay, feed expenses, vet expenses, and the transfer fees, and expenses for vaccines he would not so I told him to go elsewhere. Right now the creep feed at the coop 13-15% i cant remember which is going for about 190.00 a ton. That is about 86 cents to put one pound of gain on an animal. If you sell the animal for say 110.00 per one hundred weight (1.10 per pound) then you are still making a profit. Still you having to pay for meds, vet expenses, and feed. I wouldnt do it. The same heifers and bulls that this feller was going to give me 900.00 for as yearlings I could get 1200-1400 dollars for as bred yearling heifers at 15 months old and I could get 1500-2000 for the bulls aged 14-18 months old. It was a losing situation in my opinion and it will be a losing situation for you.

Again I think you would be making a mistake if you did this.

It depends on his current operation. Obviously, if he could sell his own bulls for 1500-2000 as yearlings, why would he do this? Likewise with the heifers. This may not have benefited you, but it could benefit him. What works for him may not work for you and vice versa. Two totally different scenarios.

 

[bandit80]

I hear ya. Even if a guy tries to get everything in black and white, there is probably always "one of those things" that will come up to bite him. If HOSS has my luck, that one thing will come up eventually. I don't know HOSS, but I gather he is pretty intelligent and wouldn't enter into anything he didn't think would benefit him.

Maybe we could all have a roundtable discussion about this thinking of all the pros and cons at his house, particularly in the trophy room.

 

[HOSS]

I normally don't get into anything with my eyes closed. In this case I have a year to think about it before making any commitments. My normal job is in business so I like to work out the input costs and compare it to income revenue and add in a 15 to 20% risk factor before I make a decision. What has me buffaloed is creep cost. I have never done this so I have no idea what the normal input costs of creep per calf is. I wean at 180 days but I am sure this guy will want to wean at 205 days.

My better momma cows wean calves at a little over 600 pounds at 180 days so they are pretty good at their job.Last year my overall average was 597 on milk and grass. I'm thinking that with creep this will put them close to 700 or so at 205. I am sure he will be happy with that ;-)

Another pro here is it may help me get into the pure bred business. I can take some of the payment in heifers as he is most interested in selling the bulls. I have looked for an economical way into the purebred business with Gelbviehs. This breeder carries some of the top genetics as he is an ABS rep and his flush cows are top notch. He has also offered to A.I. those heifers for me to the bull of my choice for free.

I have allot to think about but fortunatley I have time.

Bandit and TNMBP, I'll set up the round table and we can stare at deer heads, sip iced tea (sweet of course) and contempelate the pros and cons of making money on cows.....mostly cons I'm sure :cowboy:

 

[EAT BEEF]

If you think this guy has real good cows and you want into the pb business it kinda changes the game. It might very well be a good idea for you.

 

[FarmGirl10]

If I were you...I'd split the herd (half and half). Breed half of the cows and raise the calves the way you have been in one pasture. Then try out the embryo transfers in the other half of your herd. Then you can see if you like the arrangement and if you are making more of a profit.

 

[Horticattleman]

What are you gonna do about replacements?

 

[Frankie]

Frankie, that is this breeders reason for soliciting. He only owns enough land for 150 momma cows of his own. He has grown to the point were he needs more cows to supply the demand. He also has his own annual sale that he needs animals available for. He does the embryo transfers himself so there would be no cost to me for that. After the transfers have taken place he says that I can wait a while and then turn my bull in to clean up the cows where the embryos don't take. That way I don't have cows missing a breeding season.

If I did it it would be next year since my cows have all been bred back this summer.

The people that I know who had problems blamed it mostly on the management of the recip cow herd. Cows need to be on a good nutritional level. Depending on how you normally manage your cattle, that might require some extra feeding that would cut into your profits? A good herd health program is a must, too. Will that be an extra expense? You've got time to investigate these things, but It looks like to me that it can be an opportunity for you. BTW, I think Gardiners provide their cooperater herds with bulls to use as clean up after the embryos have been implanted. Maybe that's something you need to discuss with your friend when you need another bull. ;-)

 

[HOSS]

Frankie, that is this breeders reason for soliciting. He only owns enough land for 150 momma cows of his own. He has grown to the point were he needs more cows to supply the demand. He also has his own annual sale that he needs animals available for. He does the embryo transfers himself so there would be no cost to me for that. After the transfers have taken place he says that I can wait a while and then turn my bull in to clean up the cows where the embryos don't take. That way I don't have cows missing a breeding season.

If I did it it would be next year since my cows have all been bred back this summer.

The people that I know who had problems blamed it mostly on the management of the recip cow herd. Cows need to be on a good nutritional level. Depending on how you normally manage your cattle, that might require some extra feeding that would cut into your profits? A good herd health program is a must, too. Will that be an extra expense? You've got time to investigate these things, but It looks like to me that it can be an opportunity for you. BTW, I think Gardiners provide their cooperater herds with bulls to use as clean up after the embryos have been implanted. Maybe that's something you need to discuss with your friend when you need another bull. ;-)

Frankie, my current nutritional program is allot of mixed grass and clover, good quality hay and free choice loose mineral mix suggested by the UT Ag extension agent after he visited my farm for an analysis year before last. At this time I do not supplement with any grains with the exception of enough to keep them coming into the corral.

My medical program is in accordance with the BQA program and is administered by the vet twice per year. I keep a book of records on what types of vaccinations / meds they get and when. I have the vet do an injectable wormer in the spring and I use a pour-on in the fall. Flies are controlled by sprays and rubs.

The one thing I do not own is a scale to measure BW of newborns. Last year I borrowed the neighbors tri-pod and hanging scale to record my BW's mostly as a curiosity. If I get into the PB business I will invest in a good scale. I also borrowed the local Ag Extension set of scales last year at weaning to record those weights.

That is a good idea about the clean-up bull. He could try out some of his better genetic bulls on my herd

 

[EAT BEEF]

Dont forget hoss that the equip program will help cost share 50% on scales if you have a master beef producer and bqa certification. If you dont have those then they cost share 35%.

I wonder if that is in all states or just Tenn?