Hard Cull'in Criteria

[fargus]

You're right CB. I'm not fooling myself in to thinking that I couldn't buy replacement cheaper than I can produce them. I AM trying to make genetic gains, and I would argue that that is a much more difficult thing to do with purchased commercial replacements than with retained heifers. Further, I can write off all the costs that go into the upkeep of the cow, and raising a heifer to 2 before she calves. I can't get back the opportunity costs.

I'm trying to build a herd of cows that is adapted for my area, my management style and meets our performance goals. My contention is that I would have to do a lot of buying and culling, and continue to have to cull at a relatively high rate for my entire career. If we cull hard, let the cream rise to the top, and retain are own females, my cull rate will drop. I should also be able to out-perform most of the cows that I would have to opportunity to purchase.

I surely won't be selling my best 5-7 year old cows any time soon. Those are the ones that have already paid for themselves and are putting money in my pocket. If those are for sale off my place, they're a cull. If somebody is willing to sell you those quality cows for $8-1200 apiece, I'd keep robbing him. I'm not able to buy good cows for that kind of money here.

 

[Caustic Burno]

You're right CB. I'm not fooling myself in to thinking that I couldn't buy replacement cheaper than I can produce them. I AM trying to make genetic gains, and I would argue that that is a much more difficult thing to do with purchased commercial replacements than with retained heifers. Further, I can write off all the costs that go into the upkeep of the cow, and raising a heifer to 2 before she calves. I can't get back the opportunity costs.

I'm trying to build a herd of cows that is adapted for my area, my management style and meets our performance goals. My contention is that I would have to do a lot of buying and culling, and continue to have to cull at a relatively high rate for my entire career. If we cull hard, let the cream rise to the top, and retain are own females, my cull rate will drop. I should also be able to out-perform most of the cows that I would have to opportunity to purchase.

I surely won't be selling my best 5-7 year old cows any time soon. Those are the ones that have already paid for themselves and are putting money in my pocket. If those are for sale off my place, they're a cull. If somebody is willing to sell you those quality cows for $8-1200 apiece, I'd keep robbing him. I'm not able to buy good cows for that kind of money here.

Your absolutely right I have no problem with some one retaining heifers. There are just too many people that think they are free. They are a long way from being free. With the current conditions in Texas it would cost me close to 2000 dollars to retain a heifer. In normal times it is still around 1400 to 1500 dollars. It is an economic decision not an emotional one. It is like the people that cuss the evil salebarn that they just hauled their shyty calves to. They must be shyt they hauled them to the salebarn. They are even going to cash the check from the garbage barn. I have bought a many S/S at the barn and made money on them. Have I ever got a bad one you bet, she went right back to the barn.

 

[Stocker Steve]

They truck bred Holstein heifers south and south west from here. After I see the messages on the cost of hay and pasture leases in Texas I think I know part of the reason why.

Could be a lot of beef heifers making the same journey south in a couple year while others get by on their S/S. Where to you think is the cheapest area to raise replacement and why?

 

[Caustic Burno]

They truck bred Holstein heifers south and south west from here. After I see the messages on the cost of hay and pasture leases in Texas I think I know part of the reason why.

Could be a lot of beef heifers making the same journey south in a couple year while others get by on their S/S. Where to you think is the cheapest area to raise replacement and why?

It gets down to cost per day to upkeep the cow. My county has no railroad so all grain's to the feedmill has to be trucked in just like fertilizer, lime etc. A ton of lime here is 80 dollars a ton I know of area's it cost half.
You have to get realistic in what it cost to keep old Belle in the pasture. You may be able to do it on 50 cents a day and me a dollar and a quarter. I am scared to see what the price for upkeep is going to run by the end of the year in this drought. Last time I figured it would cost me almost 2 grand to get a heifer to production that make's it nut's to retain in my book.
All we have control over is input cost being the cost to raise or purchase.
I am sure there are area's that may be able to raise a heifer for 1000 to 1200 dollar's that makes it much more attractive besides the 25% O crap factor.
Again at my cost the O crap factor makes it cost prohibitive in my book.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I am paying $24 a ton for spread lime and $50 to 70 a ton for hay... Trouble is the length of winter, and the local fact that corn stalk grazing is very limited.

Even with cheap hay, stockers pencil out at about 2X the gross margin/acre of pairs. Replacements are in the middle. Bankers eyes got wide when I explained how much it would take to stock entirely with 6 wt. steers.

So selling replacements (and keeping proven cows) calculates out best for non stocker quality forage and moderate working capital. I can take heifers through one winter on the cow and then the big (eaters) at about 4 months bred.

Trucking heifers to Nebraska or Iowa for a winter corn stalk vacation would seem to be the cheapest way to repopulate Texas.

 

[papavillars]

With all the hard cullin, I think it is a great time to buy some mighty fine 6-7 year old cows. I was going to keep a few heifers but my vet talked me in to selling them and going in with him and buying twenty older cows. We bought them over a three week period and there were some really great looking cows. Some people are having to cull further and now their best cows are for sale.

 

[rockridgecattle]

Personally, I prefer the old proven cows to heifers - especially at today's prices for calves. Cows with lighter calves are easy keepers because they don't milk - but they'd be on my list to move because of my feed situation. Big cows - not a reason to cull on my behalf. I prefer cows to heifers regardless.

I'd check with Knersie though.

Big cows better produce the big calves...huge calves, the ones we should brag about. If they do not, if the calves are in the middle, they eat more than they should, convert the energy into themselves. Not money makers.
I agree about the proven cows compared to hiefers. They say that hiefers have a cull rate of 20-25% by the time the third calf is due to hit the ground...so figure that into your costing and culling.

As to safe family lines of cows...ya i agree with that to a point. But there is also family lines which can give you issues. When life was good, we kept hiefers to get our numbers up. Young, stupid and green behind the ears, we kept some we should not have. A few years later time to cull heavy due to feed shortages. When we looked into the cull pen after preg testing our response was...there is cow # so and so...and look, there is her daughter and grand daughter and great grand...you get the idea. We culled 50% of the herd and almost every cull was a in line or family of cattle. Taught me alot.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Personally, I prefer the old proven cows to heifers - especially at today's prices for calves. Cows with lighter calves are easy keepers because they don't milk - but they'd be on my list to move because of my feed situation. Big cows - not a reason to cull on my behalf. I prefer cows to heifers regardless.

I'd check with Knersie though.

Big cows better produce the big calves...huge calves, the ones we should brag about. If they do not, if the calves are in the middle, they eat more than they should, convert the energy into themselves. Not money makers.
I agree about the proven cows compared to hiefers. They say that hiefers have a cull rate of 20-25% by the time the third calf is due to hit the ground...so figure that into your costing and culling.

As to safe family lines of cows...ya i agree with that to a point. But there is also family lines which can give you issues. When life was good, we kept hiefers to get our numbers up. Young, stupid and green behind the ears, we kept some we should not have. A few years later time to cull heavy due to feed shortages. When we looked into the cull pen after preg testing our response was...there is cow # so and so...and look, there is her daughter and grand daughter and great grand...you get the idea. We culled 50% of the herd and almost every cull was a in line or family of cattle. Taught me alot.

Man are you dead on I want that thousand pound cow that raises a 500 to 600 pound calf at weaning not that 1500 pound eating machine that raises the same weight calf. It never ceases to amaze me at cattlemen that brag about the behemouths standing in there pasture. The same has happened with bulls. I don't want that 2000 pound and up gut to keep full. I want that 1500 1600 pound boy.

 

[IL cow man]

In the long run economically it has always shown buying cows is cheaper than raising replacement heifers, but someone needs to raise them or we will have no cows. There could be an opportunity with good consistent F1's. We have an industry with huge variances in type of cows and that has to do with the cattle vary more from geographical needs. The swine and poultry industry is way ahead on animal consistency, but the environment the animals are in is much more static. I've bought bred heifers in semi load lots and it has been not a very good experience. They have calved fine, but the variance in the groups have been astronomical. Body confirmation, udder development, temperment(huge), breeding back, etc. The question is what value to pay for consistant quality F1's, because a producer should be rewarded. The other thing is the time to develop these base herds. There is sexed semen and proven maternal bulls so it can be done.

 

[agmantoo]

With the exception of the bulls I have a closed herd. A closed herd has many advantages to me. My animals, all commercial, with the exception of the bulls will remain closed and I have no problem, expense or time, with rearing my replacement heifers. I cannot over emphasize the advantages of having animals that are adapted to your place. The heifers that I retain are better than what I can buy. Last year I had a visitor, and two of his friends, that sells high dollar registered stock. I thought they came to see the rotational practices I use but all they seemed to want to do was to examine the herd. There is nothing spectacular about these animals other than they are productive and efficient off KY31 fescue grass. Stocker Steve....If you haven't recently stopped and reviewed your long term plans please do so. Review where the decisions you are making today are molding into your future. I am a person that believes that staying focused will have its rewards. Yes, change is inevitable but managed change will yield better results IMO. Older proven cows are more predictable and they are more profitable. That is why many folks like me want an animal that once put into the herd will produce a calf yearly or less, consistently over a 10 to 12 year period.

 

[fargus]

In the long run economically it has always shown buying cows is cheaper than raising replacement heifers, but someone needs to raise them or we will have no cows. There could be an opportunity with good consistent F1's. We have an industry with huge variances in type of cows and that has to do with the cattle vary more from geographical needs. The swine and poultry industry is way ahead on animal consistency, but the environment the animals are in is much more static. I've bought bred heifers in semi load lots and it has been not a very good experience. They have calved fine, but the variance in the groups have been astronomical. Body confirmation, udder development, temperment(huge), breeding back, etc. The question is what value to pay for consistant quality F1's, because a producer should be rewarded. The other thing is the time to develop these base herds. There is sexed semen and proven maternal bulls so it can be done.

I don't want to see the beef industry go down that road. The variances are what is going to keep the national cow-herd adaptable, and provides a HUGE pool of genetics that we can draw from. We develop F1's that work well here, and produce feeder calves that work in this part of the world, but I suffer no illusions that my "quality" cows would be junk to somebody in another environment. The reverse is also true. Coming from somebody who works in a large hog barn, I wouldn't trade our consistency problems for some of the other issues that industry is facing, and will continue to face long-term.

I don't want cookie-cutter steaks either. Part of the experience of eating beef is regional variance in the meat you are consuming, and trying to find that steakhouse that has the "perfect" steak. Just my opinion.

 

[JustSimmental]

Keep the ones that meet or exceed these qualities:

1. Structurally Sound

2. Phenotype typical of the breed

3. Good Udder attachment and teat placement

4. Moderate milk production

5. Reproductively Sound

6. Good Disposition

7. Mothering Ability

8. Calving Interval < 365 Days

9. Weaning weight of calves at 50% of Dam's Weight

10. Unassisted calving

11. Fertility

12. Capacity

13. Longevity

14. Age at Puberty

15. Moderate Frame Score

16. Easy fleshing on available resources

17. Carcass merit

18. Moderate Mature Weight

19. Maternal Calving Ease

20. Maternal Weaning Weight

I am gearing up to produce F1 replacements. I bought some cows this spring, and then some pairs this summer, and have 12 retained bred heifers, so it is time for some hard choices. Since all the nut jobs and poor mothers are long gone - - I can cull proven "old cows" (wide muzzles, OK bags), cows with lighter calves (easy keepers except for 2), big cows (3 left), or fleshy bred heifers. I am tempted to cull cows and keep the heifers but I have been disappointed so many times before...

Any tips here?

 

[plumber_greg]

Must be simmis that meet that cirteria. gs

 

[JustSimmental]

Not many meet all those requirements-- maybe 10% of each heifer group annually, but it does give most ppl an idea of what we want in a replacement cow/heifer. For us it is a goal to work toward.
JS

Must be simmis that meet that cirteria. gs

 

[u4411clb]

Also to keep in mind if we put a 15 calf average on a cow. If you do raise a replacement heifer and she turns out right you can get 15 calves out of her if you purchase a 8 year old you will get 8 calves or so out of her. So to equal that 1 retained heifer you will have to be correct on 2 of those 7-8 year old cows. That is one reason why I retain and purchase heifers because if she turns out right chances are she will last me the rest of my years in the cattle business.

 

[fargus]

Not many meet all those requirements-- maybe 10% of each heifer group annually, but it does give most ppl an idea of what we want in a replacement cow/heifer. For us it is a goal to work toward.
JS

Must be simmis that meet that cirteria. gs

Just 10%? You might want to look at some different bulls.

 

[VanC]

In the long run economically it has always shown buying cows is cheaper than raising replacement heifers, but someone needs to raise them or we will have no cows. There could be an opportunity with good consistent F1's. We have an industry with huge variances in type of cows and that has to do with the cattle vary more from geographical needs. The swine and poultry industry is way ahead on animal consistency, but the environment the animals are in is much more static. I've bought bred heifers in semi load lots and it has been not a very good experience. They have calved fine, but the variance in the groups have been astronomical. Body confirmation, udder development, temperment(huge), breeding back, etc. The question is what value to pay for consistant quality F1's, because a producer should be rewarded. The other thing is the time to develop these base herds. There is sexed semen and proven maternal bulls so it can be done.

I don't want to see the beef industry go down that road. The variances are what is going to keep the national cow-herd adaptable, and provides a HUGE pool of genetics that we can draw from. We develop F1's that work well here, and produce feeder calves that work in this part of the world, but I suffer no illusions that my "quality" cows would be junk to somebody in another environment. The reverse is also true. Coming from somebody who works in a large hog barn, I wouldn't trade our consistency problems for some of the other issues that industry is facing, and will continue to face long-term.

I don't want cookie-cutter steaks either. Part of the experience of eating beef is regional variance in the meat you are consuming, and trying to find that steakhouse that has the "perfect" steak. Just my opinion.

Your first paragraph is right on the money, IMO. There have to be different types of cattle adapted to different parts of the world. Most swine and poultry are now raised indoors in controlled environments so they can be more consistent. The beef industry doesn't have that luxury.

I have to disagree with your second paragraph, however, at least to a point. While variety can be a good thing, I believe most consumers want consistency in any product they buy, including beef. In other words, they WANT those cookie-cutter steaks. As an example, I saw some ribeyes yesterday that were just under 14 bucks a pound. The average comsumer that might buy those is going to want to be reasonably sure that they're going to be good. Most people don't like crap shoots when spending that much. If they don't turn out good it's not likely they'll try it again, at least not at that price. By the way, I bought them and am going to grill them later today so I'll let you know.

 

[Nesikep]

I agree that cattle will, are, and *should* be varied in many ways, however, I think it's safe to say that all beef cows should have tender steaks... no one wants a piece of grilled rubber. I had a steak from a 4 year old cow the other day that was absolutely great, and I've had 2 year old cow steaks that were harder than recapped tires. The variances in the beef industry should be limited to what does well in what climates, and then there can be some creativity as far as fur colours, horned or polled, and well, I guess growth rates. the people who bought my feeder steer this year for next fall promised me a couple steaks from him... I can't wait for them.. he's the most stress free animal in the world, should be about 1400 lbs by next fall, and has meat all over him... I might just not be sorry to see him go to the butcher!


BTW, what in tarnation is a Kotex ad doing on this page???? :roll:

 

[LRTX1]

I agree that cattle will, are, and *should* be varied in many ways, however, I think it's safe to say that all beef cows should have tender steaks... no one wants a piece of grilled rubber. I had a steak from a 4 year old cow the other day that was absolutely great, and I've had 2 year old cow steaks that were harder than recapped tires. The variances in the beef industry should be limited to what does well in what climates, and then there can be some creativity as far as fur colours, horned or polled, and well, I guess growth rates. the people who bought my feeder steer this year for next fall promised me a couple steaks from him... I can't wait for them.. he's the most stress free animal in the world, should be about 1400 lbs by next fall, and has meat all over him... I might just not be sorry to see him go to the butcher!


BTW, what in tarnation is a Kotex ad doing on this page???? :roll:

Nesi, I'm no genious.....but I think they keep up with the browsing history and put ads up that suits your previous searches..... :hide:

 

[fargus]

VanC,
I do agree with you on the consistency thing. I do want consistent quality. I don't NEED every steak to be the same. I'll tell you this, a steak in Texas is different than a steak in Ontario. They're both good, but they are different.

How'd the ribeyes turn out?