guns

[Carlos D.]

what was the historical reason for haveing THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS in the american constitution?

carl

 

[Alice]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

this is the second amendment to the constitution, passed in 1791...it was not written in the original constitution.

This amendment has been interpreted and reinterpreted a gazillion ways by standing courts. The way I read this amendment, however, is that it was originally passed to make certain that should the need arise to defend the United States, the citizens of the United States should be able to be armed.

Alice

 

[Carlos D.]

makes sense-If we want to own a handgun in canada theres a lot of hoops to go through - mostly collectors or those affiliated with a gun glub can have one --criminal check and all to go through--But lately a lot of our murders in cities are committed with illegall hand guns brought up from the usa

carl

 

[Carlos D.]

I should also say -this post is not about being against guns-- I carry a rifle in the truck with me all the time

 

[Alice]

makes sense-If we want to own a handgun in canada theres a lot of hoops to go through - mostly collectors or those affiliated with a gun glub can have one --criminal check and all to go through--But lately a lot of our murders in cities are committed with illegall hand guns brought up from the usa

carl

Do you mean illegally purchased handguns? There's definitely a difference in terminology...however, to the injured or dead victim, I doubt the terminology means much.

Gang related street crime in the U.S. is by and large committed by illegally purchased handguns.

Alice

 

[Carlos D.]

ya I think its the same here to

carl

 

[Alice]

I should also say -this post is not about being against guns-- I carry a rifle in the truck with me all the time

And, we have a rifle in the closet at the house...and Van has a handgun in the top dresser drawer. We don't carry guns, handguns or rifles in the cars or pickups, but I guess that's because we've yet to see the need. However, since these dang black buzzards keep mulitplying, that need is going to precipitate me carrying one with me in the Polaris Ranger.

Alice

 

[Carlos D.]

I only carry it for coyotes and such ,they like to eat my sheep and chickens

carl

 

[backhoeboogie]

We don't carry guns, handguns or rifles in the cars or pickups, but I guess that's because we've yet to see the need.
Alice

I need mine once in a blue moon. But it is better for me to have it when I need it, than to not have it and need it. Since the hogs are traveling mostly at night, I don't get many shots at them. If they hapopned to travel in the day time, I'd need a new box of bullets regularly. My traps have thinnned their numbers.

 

[HOSS]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

this is the second amendment to the constitution, passed in 1791...it was not written in the original constitution.

This amendment has been interpreted and reinterpreted a gazillion ways by standing courts. The way I read this amendment, however, is that it was originally passed to make certain that should the need arise to defend the United States, the citizens of the United States should be able to be armed.

Alice

The 2nd amendment was added mostly for the protection of the people from a tyranical government. During that time period a centalized government was feared and provisions were made so that the People would have a means to overthrow a government that becomes oppressive. It was a lesson learned from the British rule and the Revolutionary War.

That is why it is the most important right of all of them. Without it the rest could be taken away at the whim of the government. The 2nd amendment guarantees the existence of the rest.

 

[Alice]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

this is the second amendment to the constitution, passed in 1791...it was not written in the original constitution.

This amendment has been interpreted and reinterpreted a gazillion ways by standing courts. The way I read this amendment, however, is that it was originally passed to make certain that should the need arise to defend the United States, the citizens of the United States should be able to be armed.

Alice

The 2nd amendment was added mostly for the protection of the people from a tyranical government. During that time period a centalized government was feared and provisions were made so that the People would have a means to overthrow a government that becomes oppressive. It was a lesson learned from the British rule and the Revolutionary War.

That is why it is the most important right of all of them. Without it the rest could be taken away at the whim of the government. The 2nd amendment guarantees the existence of the rest.

Yeah, that too... 8) How that original thinking fits in today's world, taken to the nth degree, worries the honk outta me. Thoughts of David Koresh, the suvivalist militias, quickly comes to mind... :shock:

Alice

 

[HOSS]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

this is the second amendment to the constitution, passed in 1791...it was not written in the original constitution.

This amendment has been interpreted and reinterpreted a gazillion ways by standing courts. The way I read this amendment, however, is that it was originally passed to make certain that should the need arise to defend the United States, the citizens of the United States should be able to be armed.

Alice

The 2nd amendment was added mostly for the protection of the people from a tyranical government. During that time period a centalized government was feared and provisions were made so that the People would have a means to overthrow a government that becomes oppressive. It was a lesson learned from the British rule and the Revolutionary War.

That is why it is the most important right of all of them. Without it the rest could be taken away at the whim of the government. The 2nd amendment guarantees the existence of the rest.

Yeah, that too... 8) How that original thinking fits in today's world, taken to the nth degree, worries the honk outta me. Thoughts of David Koresh, the suvivalist militias, quickly comes to mind... :shock:

Alice

Yes it could play both ways. The David Koresh extremist worry me also BUT they worry me less than folks such as Hitler, Idiahmin (sp?), Stalin, Saddam Hussien, Pol Pot etc.. Not from the standpoint that we may be invaded but history shows that tyrants can come to power anywhere given the right political climate. The US is less vulnerable but not immune. The David Koreshes of the world are small time crack pots with a couple hundred followers. A strong political leader or system can control armies, police, civic governments etc.. Will it happen in my lifetime? Probably not....but I think it is knieve to think that it will not happen someday. World history has shown that Democracies or Free Republics struggle to last over 200 years. The US has but look at how much has eroded over that same period.

If you look at recent historys worst dictators (like Hitler, Stalin etc..) the first thing that they did was disarm the general populace. Just think if some of these populations had guns how the tide could have changed and millions of lives could have been saved.

OK...enough of my stumping... :lol:

 

[Alice]

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

this is the second amendment to the constitution, passed in 1791...it was not written in the original constitution.

This amendment has been interpreted and reinterpreted a gazillion ways by standing courts. The way I read this amendment, however, is that it was originally passed to make certain that should the need arise to defend the United States, the citizens of the United States should be able to be armed.

Alice

The 2nd amendment was added mostly for the protection of the people from a tyranical government. During that time period a centalized government was feared and provisions were made so that the People would have a means to overthrow a government that becomes oppressive. It was a lesson learned from the British rule and the Revolutionary War.

That is why it is the most important right of all of them. Without it the rest could be taken away at the whim of the government. The 2nd amendment guarantees the existence of the rest.

Yeah, that too... 8) How that original thinking fits in today's world, taken to the nth degree, worries the honk outta me. Thoughts of David Koresh, the suvivalist militias, quickly comes to mind... :shock:

Alice

Yes it could play both ways. The David Koresh extremist worry me also BUT they worry me less than folks such as Hitler, Idiahmin (sp?), Stalin, Saddam Hussien, Pol Pot etc.. Not from the standpoint that we may be invaded but history shows that tyrants can come to power anywhere given the right political climate. The US is less vulnerable but not immune. The David Koreshes of the world are small time crack pots with a couple hundred followers. A strong political leader or system can control armies, police, civic governments etc.. Will it happen in my lifetime? Probably not....but I think it is knieve to think that it will not happen someday. World history has shown that Democracies or Free Republics struggle to last over 200 years. The US has but look at how much has eroded over that same period.

If you look at recent historys worst dictators (like Hitler, Stalin etc..) the first thing that they did was disarm the general populace. Just think if some of these populations had guns how the tide could have changed and millions of lives could have been saved.

OK...enough of my stumping... :lol:

Hitler, and the other tyrants you mentioned, had control of the entire military, with all of it's weapons and war machines. How could the populace having only guns turned the tide going up against war machines and the trained military? That's just a question, now. I am not advocating the citizens of the United States giving up their weapons. I just don't see how guns in and of themselves can be effective against an entire trained military with all of the weapons of war at it's disposal. Again, I am not advocating the citizens of the United States giving up their weapons.

Alice

 

[backhoeboogie]

I just don't see how guns in and of themselves can be effective against an entire trained military with all of the weapons of war at it's disposal. Alice

Don't think for a minute that the terrorists don't realize that we are all armed. If not, we'd be bigger victims than we already have been. Criminals realize it too. In the back of their back of their minds they are not only thinking that they may get 5 years for burglary, they may also get shot. Of course, on the second hand, punks on drugs don't think much at all.

Being out gunned has nothing to do with it. When death is inevitable, you'll sacrafice your life to save your loved ones. We saw just that on an airplane. Unarmed citizens went up against those who took the plane. I'd love to have been able to put just a little old 22 pistol in one of those pockets.

Without armed citizens, it will be a whole new ball game. Our mindsets and thinking will take a whole new route. So will the mindset of criminals and terrorists.

 

[Alice]

I just don't see how guns in and of themselves can be effective against an entire trained military with all of the weapons of war at it's disposal. Alice

Don't think for a minute that the terrorists don't realize that we are all armed. If not, we'd be bigger victims than we already have been. Criminals realize it too. In the back of their back of their minds they are not only thinking that they may get 5 years for burglary, they may also get shot. Of course, on the second hand, punks on drugs don't think much at all.

Being out gunned has nothing to do with it. When death is inevitable, you'll sacrafice your life to save your loved ones. We saw just that on an airplane. Unarmed citizens went up against those who took the plane. I'd love to have been able to put just a little old 22 pistol in one of those pockets.

Without armed citizens, it will be a whole new ball game. Our mindsets and thinking will take a whole new route. So will the mindset of criminals and terrorists.

I understand that...

Hitler talked and connived and murdered his way into power...he didn't use a big show of force...and once he gained control, it was all over but the shoutin' for the german people. My question was how the people of WWII Germany could have turned the tide had they been armed once Hitler took control of the military and the machines of war?

 

[HOSS]

I just don't see how guns in and of themselves can be effective against an entire trained military with all of the weapons of war at it's disposal. Alice

Don't think for a minute that the terrorists don't realize that we are all armed. If not, we'd be bigger victims than we already have been. Criminals realize it too. In the back of their back of their minds they are not only thinking that they may get 5 years for burglary, they may also get shot. Of course, on the second hand, punks on drugs don't think much at all.

Being out gunned has nothing to do with it. When death is inevitable, you'll sacrafice your life to save your loved ones. We saw just that on an airplane. Unarmed citizens went up against those who took the plane. I'd love to have been able to put just a little old 22 pistol in one of those pockets.

Without armed citizens, it will be a whole new ball game. Our mindsets and thinking will take a whole new route. So will the mindset of criminals and terrorists.

I understand that...

Hitler talked and connived and murdered his way into power...he didn't use a big show of force...and once he gained control, it was all over but the shoutin' for the german people. My question was how the people of WWII Germany could have turned the tide had they been armed once Hitler took control of the military and the machines of war?

The same way insurgents are holding the might of the US military back in Iraq and the way the Viet Cong did it in Vietnam. They had a few weapons and little training but when you hit and run, hide back into the populace and drag it out for years you eventually wear your "big" opponent out.

 

[aplusmnt]

I just don't see how guns in and of themselves can be effective against an entire trained military with all of the weapons of war at it's disposal. Alice

Don't think for a minute that the terrorists don't realize that we are all armed. If not, we'd be bigger victims than we already have been. Criminals realize it too. In the back of their back of their minds they are not only thinking that they may get 5 years for burglary, they may also get shot. Of course, on the second hand, punks on drugs don't think much at all.

Being out gunned has nothing to do with it. When death is inevitable, you'll sacrafice your life to save your loved ones. We saw just that on an airplane. Unarmed citizens went up against those who took the plane. I'd love to have been able to put just a little old 22 pistol in one of those pockets.

Without armed citizens, it will be a whole new ball game. Our mindsets and thinking will take a whole new route. So will the mindset of criminals and terrorists.

I understand that...

Hitler talked and connived and murdered his way into power...he didn't use a big show of force...and once he gained control, it was all over but the shoutin' for the german people. My question was how the people of WWII Germany could have turned the tide had they been armed once Hitler took control of the military and the machines of war?

The amount of people in the military rather it is U.S. now or Germany back then is a small percentage of the Countries population. Say you have a million soldiers being ordered by a crazy Power hungry leader, but you have billion citizens with a few rifles and pistols. It would be a force to be reconed with.

Besides how many of those soldiers do you think would stand and fight against their fellow citizens, family members or friends if ordered to? Guns help keep things in balance, rather it is the balance against Criminals, Terrorist or Political tyrants.

Every citizen should be armed and able to defend, their property and country.

 

[mtncows]

Hoss ,you are right on the 2nd amendment and Hitler etc!!

 

[Alice]

I just don't see how guns in and of themselves can be effective against an entire trained military with all of the weapons of war at it's disposal. Alice

Don't think for a minute that the terrorists don't realize that we are all armed. If not, we'd be bigger victims than we already have been. Criminals realize it too. In the back of their back of their minds they are not only thinking that they may get 5 years for burglary, they may also get shot. Of course, on the second hand, punks on drugs don't think much at all.

Being out gunned has nothing to do with it. When death is inevitable, you'll sacrafice your life to save your loved ones. We saw just that on an airplane. Unarmed citizens went up against those who took the plane. I'd love to have been able to put just a little old 22 pistol in one of those pockets.

Without armed citizens, it will be a whole new ball game. Our mindsets and thinking will take a whole new route. So will the mindset of criminals and terrorists.

I understand that...

Hitler talked and connived and murdered his way into power...he didn't use a big show of force...and once he gained control, it was all over but the shoutin' for the german people. My question was how the people of WWII Germany could have turned the tide had they been armed once Hitler took control of the military and the machines of war?

The same way insurgents are holding the might of the US military back in Iraq and the way the Viet Cong did it in Vietnam. They had a few weapons and little training but when you hit and run, hide back into the populace and drag it out for years you eventually wear your "big" opponent out.

Thank you...that's what I was looking for...a direct answer to my direct question. And, it is a good answer and one that I can understand. Thanks again,

Alice

 

[HOSS]

No problem Alice. I'm glad it made sense to you. Sometimes I scramble my thoughts on paper.

An interesting point about Hitler was that he fought his culture war an several fronts. Of course there was the literal eastern and western fronts but he also used propaganda and political sabotage to gain absolute power. His minister of propaganda (I think maybe Goerring) made a statement that it does not matter what lie you tell the public or even if they know it is a lie. All you have to do is say the same lie over and over and over and eventually the public will believe it. This is how he convinced the German public that Jews should be put into work camps. The average German citizen did not know that they were actually death camps. They had been convinced that the internment of the Jews was neccessary for the preservation of the Fatherland. Hitler banned and confiscated the publics firearms in 1939 under the pre-text that Jews were using guns to commit crimes against Germans and he also used the standard wording used by gun control advocates today on how the average citizen has no "need" for guns. Interesting fact that parts of the gun control act of 1969 is modeled off of Hitlers 1939 act. It is a copy word for word in some areas.