Grass finished hollistic grazing

[JCB565]

Does anyone here do Mob grazing, or hollistic (minimal medicine, lots of rotation, grass finishg) cattle? Im curious what your experiances have been? ill be honest, I want to start a herd. But Im not a knowlegable cattleman. Id be leasing other peoples land, and running cattle in another ranchers herd (who will be managing them for me) the goal is over the next 5-7 years to grow the count as rapidly as possible. (meaning buying a few head every quarter, and through breeding) I have land in NC (anywhere from 60-200 acres depending on the leases available at given times, and another 50 owned by family that is currently dead, over fertilized, over worked, non productive sand) Im currently in texas, so the idea is to move the best part of the herd, and sell the rest to start over back home. Of course, differnet envorionment, different grass.

So basically, Ive been leaning to the southpole breed. From what ive learned they do well on grass alone and are pretty hard with a good gut. That said, a good friend of mine raises long horns, and hes pushing me in that direction. says they are more hardy. and points out how lean the meat is. honestly i dont know. either way, I want to "try" to produce a larger animal than the southpoles Im looking at (maybe another 150 lbs?) But I also want to attempt to produce an animal with a nice marbling, but on grass, resistant to disease without a ton of meds, and one that just does what nature intended day in and out. I know there is folks that have been working on this for years, so i dont see any need to backtrack their work.

So i guess i have to ask whats the best way to go about doing this. Should i start with the hardy breed and try to build it bigger, or should i start with a bigger breed and try to make it hardier? shouldi be looking at a completly different breed, or should i be thinking seriously about a cros early in the process?


anyways, sorry this is a long read, im just kinda tossing ideas around in my head and trying to come up with a good plan. im interested in any advice anyone has to give.

 

[ABrauny]

Check your PMs

 

[HDRider]

JCB,
That is a tall order. People are dedicating their lives to answering your questions. Good luck.

 

[Andyva]

If you want hardy cattle, have you considered using two breeds, that way you would have hybrid vigor. Some of the kitschy, new fangled, or heritage breeds have a tendency to have people raising them that don't castrate as much as they should, so it seems like they are concentrated on producing seed stock that can be registered as that breed, not so much good, hardy, functional, seed stock that improves that breed. I know some people locally that went into the grass fed Angus beef business, didn't feed anything but grass, no chemicals, etc. They went out of business, I think largely because, #1 she had to pay a custom USDA inspected butcher to process and package it, which led to #2 they had to charge a large amount for their product, #3 their product, was on the tough side for a high dollar cut of meat. So, you can do pretty well, but you have to have customer retention and repeat business to survive. I think you are on the right track looking into breeds that are designed to make it on grass, instead of breeds that are designed to be finished in a small space with lots of feed in front of them.

 

[JCB565]

Thanks for all the replies and pm's i didnt realize so many folks would be into this. HDRider, thats the jist ive gotten from what i learned in the last several months and years of research (ive been throwing this idea around a long long time just waiting for the right time, and sutiable income to get started. )

Andyva, i have considered using two breeds. as a matter of fact, most of the premise of what i want to do involves breeding in a larger framed animal at some point. So now that i have really sat down and think about this, i have tried to put my priorities in order. at the top of that list are Birthing ease and rate, Hardiness, and growth performance. with the former 2 exceeding the later by a large margin. By that train of thought, I now firmly beleive it will be in the best interest of my herd, and my wallet, to start at the bottom and make absolutely sure that i have animals that can thrive on the land. I beleive that should be my base. then as the time goes on, start thinking about which animals to breed into to increase the size. Now how i should go about that? who knows.

I remember reading at some point about a particular breed thta was a working breed, but due to the location and climate had low calorie intake. Over the years, this naturally led to an animal that when given large amounts of grass, got fat..THAT is what i am looking for and what i want in my herd (as im sure others do as well) I really want to say that this article was about the wagyu breed, but I for the life of me can not find the article, but when i read it it made sense. i wish i could find it again.

I tend to beleive that if you can get some fat on the animal, and send them to slaughter at the right time, then you could get away from that toughness, and keep the grass flavor. (Btw, flavor is an entire different discussion i wont get into here)

Anyways.. just throwing out some discussion points.. really interested in this and hopefully in the coming months ill be able to go ahead and buy a few good southpoles. Im going off advice in another thread and am going to go ahead and get the best i can afford.

Curious.. what are you guys paying per head on a lease? ive gotten some crazy numbers on both ends of the scale.

 

[WalnutCrest]

JCB,
That is a tall order. People are dedicating their lives to answering your questions. Good luck.

+bajillion

What you describe wanting to do is what we try to do. It's hard work. Many of the issues you're asking about are issues we have thought about maybe having to address in the future and/or have had to deal with in actuality.

Should you care to talk about any of this, feel free to drop me a private message with your phone number and I'll give you a call.

 

[Nesikep]

Every person with a certain breed is going to tell you of all the benefits of their breed and etc.. Maybe not everyone is wrong, but probably not everyone is all right either.

Depending on if you have any experience with cattle, get some relatively cheap cows to make the worst mistakes with.. also, at least one of you might know what to do. After you get the hang of it, then start specializing and fine-tuning it.

Some of the kitschy, new fangled, or heritage breeds have a tendency to have people raising them that don't castrate as much as they should, so it seems like they are concentrated on producing seed stock that can be registered as that breed, not so much good, hardy, functional, seed stock that improves that breed.

Definitely agree

 

[houstoncutter]

Whew boy, you got a lot going on in this thread. So will comment on one of your ideas. Grass raised cattle in Texas ain't gonna work in North Carolina, no matter the breed !

 

[HDRider]

Finding animals that will work on grass alone is hard. I been looking. Most guys add feed.

You would be very lucky to find someone that raises seed stock on grass alone.

That said, and this takes time, you may need to raise them up yourself.

One indicator of doing well on grass alone may be the the milking epd. From my research, the lower the milking epd the better they do on grass alone.

Another indicator is how much fat accumulates on grass alone. Some cows just cannot eat enough grass to get fat. These are going to be smaller framed cattle. Most likely English breeds.

I do wish we would take this discussion out of the PM arena and post it out for us that are interested to read.

 

[greybeard]

Finding animals that will work on grass alone is hard. I been looking. Most guys add feed.

............

One indicator of doing well on grass alone may be the the milking epd. From my research, the lower the milking epd the better they do on grass alone.

Another indicator is how much fat accumulates on grass alone. Some cows just cannot eat enough grass to get fat. These are going to be smaller framed cattle. Most likely English breeds.

Are you including hay in the "feed category? (I assume you are not)
In my area, Herefords and breeds with Hereford or bos Indicus in the mix do well on grass alone, but you do actually have to have grass for it to work, and if you go down on the coast in salt grass country, the definition of "grass" can mean something entirely different than what one might normally think of. May not be show type cattle or even "front pasture" cattle, but they been making $$ at it for over 100 years.

 

[HDRider]

I am not including hay in my feed comment. Thanks for clarifying.

Bos Indicus is frowned on for grass finished beefs by some. Some grass finished volume buyers actually specifically exclude Brahma influence from their purchases.

See http://www.thousandhillscattleco.com/fi ... ol2014.pdf
or from: http://straussbrands.com/our-family-far ... -producers

Preference given to high marbling type, medium framed, English breeds

 

[Andyva]

Takes a more efficient cow to thrive on just grass and hay. Cheap corn did away with a lot of them. I would look to some of the breeds that people complain about being "too efficient" and "getting too fat" in a feedlot setting if you want to go grass all the way.

 

[HDRider]

Andy,
What breeds are you suggesting?

 

[Andyva]

Breed is not as important as type. Type would be deep bodied, easy fleshing, quick growing, fat and round. Not immense, necessarily, but not a miniature, either. But it depends on what part of the country you are in. The type I describe would not work well in hot, dry country. Here, efficient means being able to process lots of grass and hay, that might not necessarily all be the greatest in the world and retain enough body heat in the winter not to starve, and then shed off enough in the summer to get out and graze a bunch of grass that is mostly water. Efficient in desert country means being able to walk far enough to get a belly full without having a heat stroke. That doesn't mean you couldn't use a terminal bull on cows that were made for the country. Some people assume that because something survives it is efficient. Taking forever to grow out is not always the most efficient. Lots of the crosses go on to become breeds. Brangus, Beefmaster and so on. Maybe the real magic was using a chunky, quick growing bull on a cow that was designed for the heat. Once you get up to about Tennessee, why do you need any Brahma or Longhorn?

 

[HDRider]

Andy,
You did say breed in your post.

Concerning your subsequent post, how does one find these medium framed deep bodied, easy fleshing, quick growing, fat and round beefs? It is a needle in the hay stack.

I would love to find seed stock breeders that focus on that. I can't.

 

[AllForage]

Finding animals that will work on grass alone is hard. I been looking. Most guys add feed.

You would be very lucky to find someone that raises seed stock on grass alone.

That said, and this takes time, you may need to raise them up yourself.

One indicator of doing well on grass alone may be the the milking epd. From my research, the lower the milking epd the better they do on grass alone.

Another indicator is how much fat accumulates on grass alone. Some cows just cannot eat enough grass to get fat. These are going to be smaller framed cattle. Most likely English breeds.

I do wish we would take this discussion out of the PM arena and post it out for us that are interested to read.

You need to get out more.....or/and quit believing all you read here

 

[AllForage]

Thanks for all the replies and pm's i didnt realize so many folks would be into this. HDRider, thats the jist ive gotten from what i learned in the last several months and years of research (ive been throwing this idea around a long long time just waiting for the right time, and sutiable income to get started. )

Andyva, i have considered using two breeds. as a matter of fact, most of the premise of what i want to do involves breeding in a larger framed animal at some point. So now that i have really sat down and think about this, i have tried to put my priorities in order. at the top of that list are Birthing ease and rate, Hardiness, and growth performance. with the former 2 exceeding the later by a large margin. By that train of thought, I now firmly beleive it will be in the best interest of my herd, and my wallet, to start at the bottom and make absolutely sure that i have animals that can thrive on the land. I beleive that should be my base. then as the time goes on, start thinking about which animals to breed into to increase the size. Now how i should go about that? who knows.

I remember reading at some point about a particular breed thta was a working breed, but due to the location and climate had low calorie intake. Over the years, this naturally led to an animal that when given large amounts of grass, got fat..THAT is what i am looking for and what i want in my herd (as im sure others do as well) I really want to say that this article was about the wagyu breed, but I for the life of me can not find the article, but when i read it it made sense. i wish i could find it again.

I tend to beleive that if you can get some fat on the animal, and send them to slaughter at the right time, then you could get away from that toughness, and keep the grass flavor. (Btw, flavor is an entire different discussion i wont get into here)

Anyways.. just throwing out some discussion points.. really interested in this and hopefully in the coming months ill be able to go ahead and buy a few good southpoles. Im going off advice in another thread and am going to go ahead and get the best i can afford.

Curious.. what are you guys paying per head on a lease? ive gotten some crazy numbers on both ends of the scale.

Your fat and toughness comment is wrong.

You are asking for someone to describe a successful grass fed program from top to bottom. Why should anyone? Ego? Also you are making others manage your cattle for you? I have spent too much time writing here with the OP generally ignoring all advice while sticking to their own bizarre ideas.

 

[greybeard]

Breed is not as important as type. Type would be deep bodied, easy fleshing, quick growing, fat and round. Not immense, necessarily, but not a miniature, either. But it depends on what part of the country you are in. The type I describe would not work well in hot, dry country. Here, efficient means being able to process lots of grass and hay, that might not necessarily all be the greatest in the world and retain enough body heat in the winter not to starve, and then shed off enough in the summer to get out and graze a bunch of grass that is mostly water. Efficient in desert country means being able to walk far enough to get a belly full without having a heat stroke. That doesn't mean you couldn't use a terminal bull on cows that were made for the country. Some people assume that because something survives it is efficient. Taking forever to grow out is not always the most efficient. Lots of the crosses go on to become breeds. Brangus, Beefmaster and so on. Maybe the real magic was using a chunky, quick growing bull on a cow that was designed for the heat. Once you get up to about Tennessee, why do you need any Brahma or Longhorn?

Sounds like you are looking for the perfect breed or composite for one geographical region and climate under all weather and forage conditions--it's non-existent.
Just keep in mind, that the deep south and even the midwest are not impervious to drought either. That includes Tenn, N. Arkansas, Eastern Mo, Ky etc. There are 2 kinds of regions--those that have experienced severe drought and those that are going to.

 

[toughntender]

I have to agree with Andy that at least in the beginning body conformation and phenotype matter more than breed. All breeds have some "good" and some "bad" and there is definitely a correlation between grass efficiency and body type.

As to HD's question about where to find such cattle, I just spent the day at a feeder cattle sale. There are considerable differences in the kinds of animals walking through the ring. At least what I've noticed, is that the fatter type calf that comes in with a group of contemporaries is often discriminated against. They are usually slightly smaller framed and compact, and their body condition usually tells you they are a good doer. An easy keeper if you will. I try to buy these type of heifers to make into cows. Has anybody else noticed this kind of thing?

 

[HDRider]

Finding animals that will work on grass alone is hard. I been looking. Most guys add feed.

You would be very lucky to find someone that raises seed stock on grass alone.

That said, and this takes time, you may need to raise them up yourself.

One indicator of doing well on grass alone may be the the milking epd. From my research, the lower the milking epd the better they do on grass alone.

Another indicator is how much fat accumulates on grass alone. Some cows just cannot eat enough grass to get fat. These are going to be smaller framed cattle. Most likely English breeds.

I do wish we would take this discussion out of the PM arena and post it out for us that are interested to read.

You need to get out more.....or/and quit believing all you read here

I know..