Giganta

[Lazy M]

You gotta keep em at their genetic potential in the seedstock business ...I've seen good bulls that looked like crap during their development because of poor management..but eventually caught up later and looked like the bull they were bred to be..sired better calves then they looked like they could during that ugly period..and not knowing,you would scratch your head wondering how...

That brings up an issue. Often we read posts suggesting that bulls developed in the seedstock business "melt". I assume that means the bull has lost condition when put to work. I don't see anything "critical" in the term "melt" but the way it is used in posts on this forum, it seems to imply something far more sinister.

When I sell a bull to someone, my concern is performance and function. I don't care if he "melts". What I don't want is bad feet, bad back, low libido, inability to handle fescue pastures, or killing someone's cows with giant calves, etc. Etc.

I have a few bulls out working now, here and in Missouri. So far I have gotten no feedback of a "form or function" problem. If someone tells me a bull "melted", I expect them to lose some condition. I got one bull in Tennessee that I get pictures back on. He looks good but more importantly he has performed.

What I cannot control is someone who doesn't know what they are doing. For example, in the fall, I sold a Broadway bull. I was EMPHATIC that he was not a calving ease bull to be used on heifers. All you have to do is look at Broadway's numbers to know that. The guy who bought him was looking specifically for a Broadway bull. I suggested several times that he was not calving ease. I saw the buyer in Cynthiana. I ask about the bull. First thing he says is that he had him on a group of heifers. :???: To top it off, these were Angus heifers. The bull was PB. So add the heterosis into the equation. I may hear from this guy this coming fall.

Some people need to experience the train wreck before they'll learn...I purchased a group of really fancy black and red balancer heifers many years ago that were bred to a couple of bulls that had breed avg CE/BW epds. The seller assured me that the bulls had been used on heifers with heifers for the past several years with no issues. The heifers all had good pelvic measurements.
I ended up pulling 19 of the calves.. They had heads like cinder blocks.. I felt fortunate that I only lost 6 calves and none of the heifers. It was hell.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Train wrecks like that has sold a lot of longhorn Bulls..

 

[gcreekrch]

Invest in a weigh tape Ron, they are fairly accurate for us guessers.

You did the right thing in banding that calf and it looks like he is doing a great job of growing for you. Will you take him to kill weight?

 

[Bright Raven]

Invest in a weigh tape Ron, they are fairly accurate for us guessers.

You did the right thing in banding that calf and it looks like he is doing a great job of growing for you. Will you take him to kill weight?

That is a good idea on the weigh tape!

No. The ones that don't make seedstock will be sorted out when the weaning is completed. Then off to the Paris Stockyards.

 

[callmefence]

Nice calf.....looks like he might have a little ear.....

 

[Nesikep]

You gotta keep em at their genetic potential in the seedstock business ...I've seen good bulls that looked like crap during their development because of poor management..but eventually caught up later and looked like the bull they were bred to be..sired better calves then they looked like they could during that ugly period..and not knowing,you would scratch your head wondering how...

The ones I raise just get grass, milk, hay.. I don't have 1400 lb yearling bulls, they do grow into it though, just takes a little longer.. Their first year around here they dont' need to service the whole herd, I kinda have them to test them out at this point, some heifers and young cows, I get to see the calves the following spring

1 month


8 months


14 months

4 years

22month old daughter on left, 6 year old cow on right (like 7/8th sister)


I'd like to see a few changes on him, but his sons and daughters are a cut above anything I've had before, better growth than the limo with far more meat..

 

[Bright Raven]

Nice calf.....looks like he might have a little ear.....

It is a nice calf. In as far as it has grown well and will no doubt have a stellar weaning weight. As far as phenotype, he does not have the depth and width that I like to see. I banded him at birth because of the 123 pound birth weight but he is probably my worst bull calf this year.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

You know their potential .......if I go to buy one, i can tell if their bred up...or just fed up..feed can mask a lot, and it can show a lot...

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Thank you. I am decent at guessing weights, she is in the 1500 range.

That's a good size calf for such cow.

You grain them the way he does and you'll have monsters too.

Oh, we just had 123.9lbs calf recently, from abit smaller cow than his. No grains for cows. Had much bigger without any grain too. Just hay, salt cubes and they have plenty of exercise.
If you talked about BWs.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I agree with an earlier comment, he should have been left intact.

So many people are concerned that a big calf is a problem, but what's an extra 40 pounds to a big healthy cow? I wouldn't have used him on heifers, but there is not a cow we own that couldn't have handled him. If someone is using high calving ease and looking for low birthweight calf from a big healthy cow something is amiss in my opinion. A 100 pound calf should be a walk in the park for mature cow at 1500+ pounds. Why would you want a 60 pounder out of the gate?

I'm not chastising you for what you did, but it would have been nice to see him develop as a bull.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

You gotta keep em at their genetic potential in the seedstock business ...I've seen good bulls that looked like crap during their development because of poor management..but eventually caught up later and looked like the bull they were bred to be..sired better calves then they looked like they could during that ugly period..and not knowing,you would scratch your head wondering how...

That brings up an issue. Often we read posts suggesting that bulls developed in the seedstock business "melt". I assume that means the bull has lost condition when put to work. I don't see anything "critical" in the term "melt" but the way it is used in posts on this forum, it seems to imply something far more sinister.

When I sell a bull to someone, my concern is performance and function. I don't care if he "melts". What I don't want is bad feet, bad back, low libido, inability to handle fescue pastures, or killing someone's cows with giant calves, etc. Etc.

I have a few bulls out working now, here and in Missouri. So far I have gotten no feedback of a "form or function" problem. If someone tells me a bull "melted", I expect them to lose some condition. I got one bull in Tennessee that I get pictures back on. He looks good but more importantly he has performed.

What I cannot control is someone who doesn't know what they are doing. For example, in the fall, I sold a Broadway bull. I was EMPHATIC that he was not a calving ease bull to be used on heifers. All you have to do is look at Broadway's numbers to know that. The guy who bought him was looking specifically for a Broadway bull. I suggested several times that he was not calving ease. I saw the buyer in Cynthiana. I ask about the bull. First thing he says is that he had him on a group of heifers. :???: To top it off, these were Angus heifers. The bull was PB. So add the heterosis into the equation. I may hear from this guy this coming fall.

I would think that a bull, which looses more condition will sire some daughters, which will be quicker to melt and most likely he won't be able to serve bigger number of cows successfully. Our first Limo bull was from a farm, where weanlings got just a little bit of meal, so that bull, even if he didn't looked very nice and was smaller than our heifers at that time, he kept his condition perfectly when he matured and you didn't need to worry that he'll loose too much condition. The second bull was bought from a farm, where he was heavily fed. He sure looked great when we bought him, but he lost some condition pretty quick. He managed to get back to his better condition, when we have separated him from the herd and fed with the meal for the whole winter. Now have a small group of pregnant heifers from both bulls. Heifers from the first bull are in a nice condition, not loosing much now, but daughters of the second bull aren't like that. Will see how they all perform after calving, as they'll have nearly perfect time of calving to keep their condition after it.
Our new bull is from a similar farm as the first one, and I see that he doesn't loose much shape here, while fed with hay. Our calves from the second bull have lost more shape after weaning.
It might be just my experience, might be just coincidence.

 

[ohiosteve]

I just like the goofy look on his face, made me laugh. He's like "Hey dad! Watcha doin'!"

 

[Muddy]

I agree with an earlier comment, he should have been left intact.

So many people are concerned that a big calf is a problem, but what's an extra 40 pounds to a big healthy cow? I wouldn't have used him on heifers, but there is not a cow we own that couldn't have handled him. If someone is using high calving ease and looking for low birthweight calf from a big healthy cow something is amiss in my opinion. A 100 pound calf should be a walk in the park for mature cow at 1500+ pounds. Why would you want a 60 pounder out of the gate?

I'm not chastising you for what you did, but it would have been nice to see him develop as a bull.

Nobody wants to buy a bull with high BW that's why.

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

The problem I've had with over conditioned bulls is them losing weight and not ever able to get them back in acceptable condition. This was my experience from a local seedstock producer where I had bought 8-10 bulls over the course of several years. When I found this guy was feeding 40lbs of grain per head per day, I knew his bulls were damaged beyond any help I could give. Grain/carbohydrate overload leads to acidosis and liver abscesses and permanent liver damage.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I agree with an earlier comment, he should have been left intact.

So many people are concerned that a big calf is a problem, but what's an extra 40 pounds to a big healthy cow? I wouldn't have used him on heifers, but there is not a cow we own that couldn't have handled him. If someone is using high calving ease and looking for low birthweight calf from a big healthy cow something is amiss in my opinion. A 100 pound calf should be a walk in the park for mature cow at 1500+ pounds. Why would you want a 60 pounder out of the gate?

I'm not chastising you for what you did, but it would have been nice to see him develop as a bull.

Nobody wants to buy a bull with high BW that's why.

The ultra low BW, high CED trend will not end well. Just my opinion.

 

[CattleMan1920]

The problem I've had with over conditioned bulls is them losing weight and not ever able to get them back in acceptable condition. This was my experience from a local seedstock producer where I had bought 8-10 bulls over the course of several years. When I found this guy was feeding 40lbs of grain per head per day, I knew his bulls were damaged beyond any help I could give. Grain/carbohydrate overload leads to acidosis and liver abscesses and permanent liver damage.

40 pounds!!!!! You have to be mistaken. That's nuts! What kind of grain? Straight corn I assume?

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

No. I'm not mistaken. It was a mixture of ground milo (sorghum),corn and distillers grain.

 

[Nesikep]

Branded.. I agree with you,.. Here's a big cow, considerably bigger than I really like, but she makes whopper calves, both at birth and at weaning.. you can breed her to any bull you want, heifers will be 120 lbs (I have 1 daughter) and bull calves will be 140ish (heavy enough I ain't picking them up anymore).. Never seen grain at all.. She's never had any problems, so evidently she 'knows' what she's doing. The one daughter I have is pretty nice, much more moderate framed, big and soggy, she's 8 years old and has never had a heifer calf!.. really hoping for one this year...

 

[Bright Raven]

I agree with an earlier comment, he should have been left intact.

So many people are concerned that a big calf is a problem, but what's an extra 40 pounds to a big healthy cow? I wouldn't have used him on heifers, but there is not a cow we own that couldn't have handled him. If someone is using high calving ease and looking for low birthweight calf from a big healthy cow something is amiss in my opinion. A 100 pound calf should be a walk in the park for mature cow at 1500+ pounds. Why would you want a 60 pounder out of the gate?

I'm not chastising you for what you did, but it would have been nice to see him develop as a bull.

Nobody wants to buy a bull with high BW that's why.

The ultra low BW, high CED trend will not end well. Just my opinion.

My herd is not stacked with low BW, high CED cows. On the contrary, my cows trend toward the moderate range. But even with cows in that range, I determined this fall that I need to avoid bulls like Hook's Broadway (CE negative 4.1; BW + 3.4). Calves here tend to be big due to good forage in the last trimester when the in vitro fetus grows to maximum partum weight.

I probably didn't have to assist this cow but I don't relish birth weights over 100 pounds. My average running birth weight is 87 pounds. Furthermore, bull calves over 100 pounds at partum are a harder sell. Perhaps the biggest drawback is the liability or risk you assume as a seedstock producer of sending out a bull that causes a train wreck.

My August Pasture:

 

[Lucky]

Looks like you need a set of scales on the chute Raven. Nice looking calf. I looked at some Simbrah bred heifers that were huge last year, at least compared to the Angus heifers in same pasture.