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Genetics, Grass Fed/Grain Fed

novatech

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I know this is the wrong forum but this is where it was brought up so I going with it.
This is my understanding.
After reading Dun's poll it is very obvious that almost all cow calf producers have grass fed operations. Therefore almost all cattle are bred to well on grass (Grass fed genetics). Given that all cattle should be grass finished, economically speaking, if it was a genetic trait.
The only genetic trait I can see is in capacity. High capacity cattle would do better on lower quality forage and flat sided cattle would need a high quality forage to give the same results.
Grass fed/grain fed is not a function of genetics. It is a function of the rumen system and the microbes contained in it. Every ruminant animal contains, basically, two types of microbes within the rumen system. When grass is the majority of their diet then the microbes for grass are the primary microbes. Before they go to the feed lot they are back grounded to convert over to microbes for digestion of starches. When they go to the feed lot the the microbes that break down starches become the dominant microbes in the rumen system.
Is there something I am missing?
 

dun

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The only thing you're missing is what the point of the poll was and what I brought up a number of times. The term should be "grass finishing" not "grass fed".
 

novatech

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dun":1g1lev4y said:
The only thing you're missing is what the point of the poll was and what I brought up a number of times. The term should be "grass finishing" not "grass fed".
I may have missed your point but totally agree with you.
It is not only Ed ramming Grass fed genetics down every ones throat but others in the past that claim that their breed is better at grass finishing. I don't see it. So if anyone can explain why this would be a genetic issue I would like to know.
 

ga. prime

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novatech":ptoqnb8s said:
I know this is the wrong forum but this is where it was brought up so I going with it.
This is my understanding.
After reading Dun's poll it is very obvious that almost all cow calf producers have grass fed operations. Therefore almost all cattle are bred to well on grass (Grass fed genetics). Given that all cattle should be grass finished, economically speaking, if it was a genetic trait.The only genetic trait I can see is in capacity. High capacity cattle would do better on lower quality forage and flat sided cattle would need a high quality forage to give the same results.
Grass fed/grain fed is not a function of genetics. It is a function of the rumen system and the microbes contained in it. Every ruminant animal contains, basically, two types of microbes within the rumen system. When grass is the majority of their diet then the microbes for grass are the primary microbes. Before they go to the feed lot they are back grounded to convert over to microbes for digestion of starches. When they go to the feed lot the the microbes that break down starches become the dominant microbes in the rumen system.
Is there something I am missing?
What does that line mean?
 

mnmtranching

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Grass finished [if you want to call it finished] can never be any more then a small portion of the US domestic beef industry. I special interest market, an OK segment of the US beef industry.
Fact is, The US is the worlds largest importer of beef. All grinding grade beef except for the high quality fed beef that comes from Canada.
The reason we import so much? We simply don't have the cow numbers needed to supply one feeder calf per year to the US domestic beef supply.
The reason we don't have the cow numbers? We don't have the forage. Summer grazing and stockpiled.
The US does have the ability to feed more cattle. [corn, soybean and other feeds].
For instance, the US will buy all the feeder cattle Mexico and Canada can supply. All will go into feedlots.
The Northern States and Canada Are on stockpiled feed [hay] at this time or soon will be. This hay is mostly to Winter the cow herds and replacements. The only way this works for the US beef producers is to put feeders on grain in feedlots or on grain at home.
Simply is not practical to try get the desired weight and quality from feeding forage only. Even if it were available.
 

novatech

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ga. prime":3t2n25qg said:
novatech":3t2n25qg said:
Given that, all cattle should be grass finished, economically speaking, if it was a genetic trait.?
What does that line mean?
If genetics were responsible for whether a cow did better on grass or grain then since we primarily raise our cattle on grass to get a calf, in order to them feed out the calf would only economically do well finishing out on grass. I hope that make scents.

PS I added a comma.
 

edrsimms

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Let me site the obvious so you can better understand it Nova--- Grassfed genetics are both by phenotype and genotype. Phenotypically speaking you should cull those which will not make it on a forage base-- first.. Then when those are culled you get rid of the rest that cannot cut it on forage, at which time you have a genetically superior group of cattle based on forage utilization. On the other hand your grain fed genetics --will never cut it on forage , which has already been figured out ---long ago--- as most of the commercial cattle operations in the US are grain fed genetics. You can change it, beginning with your soil, forage base then your genetics. Anyone on Fescue will have to start over (a least a decade behind if you started today). Fescue fed beef is the worst on Earth.

novatech":ltxv5vle said:
dun":ltxv5vle said:
The only thing you're missing is what the point of the poll was and what I brought up a number of times. The term should be "grass finishing" not "grass fed".
I may have missed your point but totally agree with you.
It is not only Ed ramming Grass fed genetics down every ones throat but others in the past that claim that their breed is better at grass finishing. I don't see it. So if anyone can explain why this would be a genetic issue I would like to know.
 

edrsimms

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novatech":i2rcetri said:
ga. prime":i2rcetri said:
novatech":i2rcetri said:
Given that, all cattle should be grass finished, economically speaking, if it was a genetic trait.?
This is so grammatically incorrect it makes no sense.
What does that line mean?
If genetics were responsible for whether a cow did better on grass or grain then since we primarily raise our cattle on grass to get a calf, in order to them feed out the calf would only economically do well finishing out on grass. I hope that make scents.
This is a mess so grammatically incorrect it makes "scents" to only one person--- Novatech. Maybe he will have time to explain this jumble of words and write a complete sentence.
 

edrsimms

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It is much more economical to finish cattle on forage; It brings a better price than grain fed; and it is healthier for you as well. And, I understand that most of you have a very poor land base which will not support a grassfed operation ---I never said it was for everyone and we need some grainers too-- to supply walmart
Ed


mnmtranching":3qdacap0 said:
Grass finished [if you want to call it finished] can never be any more then a small portion of the US domestic beef industry. I special interest market, an OK segment of the US beef industry.
Fact is, The US is the worlds largest importer of beef. All grinding grade beef except for the high quality fed beef that comes from Canada.
The reason we import so much? We simply don't have the cow numbers needed to supply one feeder calf per year to the US domestic beef supply.
The reason we don't have the cow numbers? We don't have the forage. Summer grazing and stockpiled.
The US does have the ability to feed more cattle. [corn, soybean and other feeds].
For instance, the US will buy all the feeder cattle Mexico and Canada can supply. All will go into feedlots.
The Northern States and Canada Are on stockpiled feed [hay] at this time or soon will be. This hay is mostly to Winter the cow herds and replacements. The only way this works for the US beef producers is to put feeders on grain in feedlots or on grain at home.
Simply is not practical to try get the desired weight and quality from feeding forage only. Even if it were available.
 

novatech

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edrsimms":1fd0s8he said:
Let me site the obvious so you can better understand it Nova--- Grassfed genetics are both by phenotype and genotype.I agree with the phenotype but please explain the geonotype.
Phenotypically speaking you should cull those which will not make it on a forage base-- first.. Then when those are culled you get rid of the rest that cannot cut it on forage, at which time you have a genetically superior group of cattle based on forage utilization. On the other hand your grain fed genetics --will never cut it on forage ,Well I agree up to this point,but any cattleman already does this if they have any management skills at all. It is called culling hard keepers.
which has already been figured out ---long ago--- as most of the commercial cattle operations in the US are grain fed genetics. Again you go back to the genetics part that you have not come close to explaining. The fact that an animal does good or bad on grass is determined by the efficiency of the rumen. The rumen is more efficient the bigger it is. It takes longer for the food to be processed therefore more nutrition is taken out of the forage or grain. The breakdown of what ever the cow eats is totally a function of the microbes within the rumen not the genetics of the animal.
You can change it, beginning with your soil forage base,I Agree
then your genetics.Totally disagree.
Anyone on Fescue will have to start over (a least a decade behind if you started today). Fescue fed beef is the worst on Earth.I know nothing about Fescue.

novatech":1fd0s8he said:
dun":1fd0s8he said:
The only thing you're missing is what the point of the poll was and what I brought up a number of times. The term should be "grass finishing" not "grass fed".
I may have missed your point but totally agree with you.
It is not only Ed ramming Grass fed genetics down every ones throat but others in the past that claim that their breed is better at grass finishing. I don't see it. So if anyone can explain why this would be a genetic issue I would like to know.
 

edrsimms

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Let me site the obvious so you can better understand it Nova--- Grassfed genetics are both by phenotype and genotype.
I agree with the phenotype but please explain the geonotype.
Phenotypically speaking you should cull those which will not make it on a forage base-- first.. Then when those are culled you get rid of the rest that cannot cut it on forage, at which time you have a genetically superior group of cattle based on forage utilization. On the other hand your grain fed genetics --will never cut it on forage ,

Well I agree up to this point,but any cattleman already does this if they have any management skills at all. It is called culling hard keepers.
which has already been figured out ---long ago--- as most of the commercial cattle operations in the US are grain fed genetics.

Again you go back to the genetics part that you have not come close to explaining.
Most cattle operations in the US are grain-fed genetics: the Limmins, the brahman influenced, the maine anjou and the rest of the 100 composite types. There are only a few true breeds that are grass-fed genetics and once you stray away from that you are going to lose. Everyone should understand the economics of raising large framed cattle -- it is a loser in more ways than 1. It takes years to get your program working optimally with grass-fed genetics and most don't have the land base and they are doomed to continue on with their less profitable grain fed operations. And we need those people to support Walmart and others. As far as the grass-fed genetics go--I think it is only fair that you do your own research on that as I did.

The fact that an animal does good or bad on grass is determined by the efficiency of the rumen. The rumen is more efficient the bigger it is. It takes longer for the food to be processed therefore more nutrition is taken out of the forage or grain. The breakdown of what ever the cow eats is totally a function of the microbes within the rumen not the genetics of the animal.

This is really not true as it depends on the type and quality of forage your cows are on.


You can change it, beginning with your soil forage base,I Agree
then your genetics.Totally disagree. You will never make it on grain fed genetics -- change it and you will prosper -- refuse to change and you will lose
Anyone on Fescue will have to start over (a least a decade behind if you started today). Fescue fed beef is the worst on Earth.I know nothing about Fescue.
 

IluvABbeef

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Just clearing up the conversation a bit for lack of confusion:
edrsimms=bold
Nova=italics
Me=italics & underline

edrsimms":px5t1igy said:
Let me site the obvious so you can better understand it Nova--- Grassfed genetics are both by phenotype and genotype.
I agree with the phenotype but please explain the geonotype.
Phenotypically speaking you should cull those which will not make it on a forage base-- first.. Then when those are culled you get rid of the rest that cannot cut it on forage, at which time you have a genetically superior group of cattle based on forage utilization. On the other hand your grain fed genetics --will never cut it on forage ,

Well I agree up to this point,but any cattleman already does this if they have any management skills at all. It is called culling hard keepers.
which has already been figured out ---long ago--- as most of the commercial cattle operations in the US are grain fed genetics.

Again you go back to the genetics part that you have not come close to explaining.
Most cattle operations in the US are grain-fed genetics: the Limmins, the brahman influenced, the maine anjou and the rest of the 100 composite types. There are only a few true breeds that are grass-fed genetics and once you stray away from that you are going to lose. Everyone should understand the economics of raising large framed cattle -- it is a loser in more ways than 1. It takes years to get your program working optimally with grass-fed genetics and most don't have the land base and they are doomed to continue on with their less profitable grain fed operations. And we need those people to support Walmart and others. As far as the grass-fed genetics go--I think it is only fair that you do your own research on that as I did.

Research? What research? If you did "research" then why didn't you cite nor quote any sources?

The fact that an animal does good or bad on grass is determined by the efficiency of the rumen. The rumen is more efficient the bigger it is. It takes longer for the food to be processed therefore more nutrition is taken out of the forage or grain. The breakdown of what ever the cow eats is totally a function of the microbes within the rumen not the genetics of the animal.

This is really not true as it depends on the type and quality of forage your cows are on. You still can have the right genetics if you cull for those that do poorly on the type of forage that is in your area. But, in order to agree to disagree, you BOTH are correct here i.e. neither is right nor wrong.


You can change it, beginning with your soil forage base,I Agree
then your genetics.Totally disagree. You will never make it on grain fed genetics -- change it and you will prosper -- refuse to change and you will lose
Anyone on Fescue will have to start over (a least a decade behind if you started today). Fescue fed beef is the worst on Earth.I know nothing about Fescue.

So you going to post some "research" on grass-fed genotypical genetics?
 

novatech

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All cattle are genetically designed to consume forage/grass. You know this because they have a ruminant system.
Phenotypically one cow may do better than another on different types of grasses. I will give you that phenotypic expression is genetic. You can have different phenotypes within any breed. It has also been proven that efficiency is genetic via, DNA studies. I don't know about Limms but if you will do your research you will find that Brahman and Brahman influenced cattle are some of the most efficient cattle of all the breeds. I also know through experience that there are those individual Brahman that do not do well no matter what you feed them. The only grain my Brahmans get is when they are weaned. they get one coffee can per day in the lot for gentling purposes. They stay butterball fat year round on grass alone for there entire lives or get shipped.
Corn fed beef did not get up on it's feet until the late 50's or 60's (Correct me if I am wrong on this.) So basically what you are saying is that most breeds were some how geneticly altered to be grain fed.
I have stated before I am interested in grass fed beef but I do not have to swallow what the purists have to say "hook line and sinker".
You may think I am being just hard headed about this, Well I am, until you show me something that will prove otherwise. I have changed my openion about a lot of things since I came onto these boards.
 

talldog

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novatech":qg1t194a said:
All cattle are genetically designed to consume forage/grass. You know this because they have a ruminant system.
Phenotypically one cow may do better than another on different types of grasses. I will give you that phenotypic expression is genetic. You can have different phenotypes within any breed. It has also been proven that efficiency is genetic via, DNA studies. I don't know about Limms but if you will do your research you will find that Brahman and Brahman influenced cattle are some of the most efficient cattle of all the breeds. I also know through experience that there are those individual Brahman that do not do well no matter what you feed them. The only grain my Brahmans get is when they are weaned. they get one coffee can per day in the lot for gentling purposes. They stay butterball fat year round on grass alone for there entire lives or get shipped.
Corn fed beef did not get up on it's feet until the late 50's or 60's (Correct me if I am wrong on this.) So basically what you are saying is that most breeds were some how geneticly altered to be grain fed.
I have stated before I am interested in grass fed beef but I do not have to swallow what the purists have to say "hook line and sinker".
You may think I am being just hard headed about this, Well I am, until you show me something that will prove otherwise. I have changed my openion about a lot of things since I came onto these boards.
I have learned a lot from this board ----on a number of things ! A lot of knowledge here!! :tiphat:
 

edrsimms

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john250":3lvv7p9s said:
edrsimms":3lvv7p9s said:
Fescue fed beef is the worst on Earth.I know nothing about Fescue.

Make up your mind--which is it?
John250 you idiot--- LOL that was a quote by nova--- pls take the time to read the posts entirely before replying.. I forget you are the guy that finds the 2 minute read cumbersome , so we will definately continue to receive idiot posts from you.

Go get your bucket John, don't you have some poor fence down due to deer entering your corn fields? Go feed those Ostrich, too. How are your Limmi-Ostrich crosses coming along? John are you awaiting the neighbor to show up to combine your 10 acre corn field? Don't you have some hay to bale or do you hire that out too>? Now --off ya go-- dirt-Farmer.

Ed
 

edrsimms

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Brahman influenced cattle ended up in the "mix" for heat tolerance and parasite resistance and not Carcass Merit
Most of you cannot differentiate between "feed efficiency" and "carcass merit". One has very little to do with the other! Please educate yourself on the differences.
Ed
 

novatech

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edrsimms":tot3dadg said:
Brahman influenced cattle ended up in the "mix" for heat tolerance and parasite resistance and not Carcass Merit
Most of you cannot differentiate between "feed efficiency" and "carcass merit". One has very little to do with the other! Please educate yourself on the differences.
Ed
I never compared feed efficiency to carcass merit. You can have one without the other or you can have both.
Off the subject a bit but I have been using semen from a Brahman bull that was a "Golden Certified Meat Sire" an award given on carcass evaluation of progeny. The bull won the award over any other breed for that year.
 

john250

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edrsimms":3npd2poc said:
john250":3npd2poc said:
edrsimms":3npd2poc said:
Fescue fed beef is the worst on Earth.I know nothing about Fescue.

Make up your mind--which is it?
John250 you idiot--- LOL that was a quote by nova--- pls take the time to read the posts entirely before replying.. I forget you are the guy that finds the 2 minute read cumbersome , so we will definately continue to receive idiot posts from you.

Go get your bucket John, don't you have some poor fence down due to deer entering your corn fields? Go feed those Ostrich, too. How are your Limmi-Ostrich crosses coming along? John are you awaiting the neighbor to show up to combine your 10 acre corn field? Don't you have some hay to bale or do you hire that out too>? Now --off ya go-- dirt-Farmer.

Ed

Dirt farmer? Flattery will get you nowhere, traditional rancher.

I melted down my bucket, and I'm having it made into a buckle as big as yours.

The Limmosti's are doing great. They come off pasture (fescue and mesquite) at 900 [email protected] mos. and gain 5 lb a day in the feedlot. They grade mostly prime, and provide every essential nutrient know to science plus three others which we keep a proprietary secret. Our biggest problem is we cannot export, as the government has labeled us vital to national security. Sort of like nuclear technology.

We have to padlock the feedlots to keep people from stealing them, as black market Limmosti's are fetching $20,000/head.

We sell a little of the meat for $500/lb hanging, but only to customers filling out an application detailing the sensitivity of their palates and their worthiness to consume meat which raises average life expectancy 20 years.
Most of it we donate to worthy causes, much like your hay crop.
A nursing home which received a donation from us reports an embarrassing number of pregnancies. When the Salvation Army served Limmosti for their free meal, crime rates dropped 90% and 50 people found good paying jobs the next day.

Limmosti, in summary, is good for what ails you. We'll send you some, (if your application is in order) but first you have to send us some of edsgrassfed.
 

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