Freemartins

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CKC1586

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Okay folks, bear with me here. I thought I had read everything I could get my hands on about this condition and I thought I had a good understanding of the what and why. Then last night I was talking with a gentleman from Texas and he informed me that a heifer can OUTGROW this!!!! What the ......??????? He said that before butchering a pelvic should be done to see if the parts are where they are supposed to be??????? I just don't understand how this could be. Anyone out there ever hear of such a thing? I am dumbfounded.
 

dun

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KNERSIE":27d2fi7f said:
bullshite

What KNERSIE said!
If the problem is just an infantile reprotract and it isn;t caused by frreemartinism it may possibly be outgrown. I've never seen it but it could happen, maybe.
But freemartinism is a gene flaw, time won;t fix chromosomes.
Could be he doesn;t really know what a freemartin is?
 

mnmtranching

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I don't know why all the fuss about free martins? You fatten em and eat em or sell them for kill. No need worrying about whether they can breed or not :roll: Lots of good heifers out there to choose from for your breeding stock. A free martin heifer once in a while is not something to scratch your heads about.
The only time there is a loss is with the dairy free martin, breedable dairy heifers are worth considerable more money then the non-breeders. BUT if your talking beef breeds. Ain't NO loss there. And that's a fact :cowboy:
 

cypressfarms

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dun":vj4sjt89 said:
Could be he doesn;t really know what a freemartin is?

Maybe the gentlemen from Texas has some of those special freemartins he wants to sell.

Genes don't change, period.
 

whitecow

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I don't think Freemartins are caused by genes. They are caused by antimullerian hormone. All fetuses, in effect, start out as female. Male fetuses begin secreting antimullerian hormone which prevents development of the female reproduct tract. Because bovine fraternal twins (unlike human) share the same amniotic sac, the female fetus is exposed to the hormone secreted from the male. The result can be anything from not having a repro tract at all, to the very rare event of having a normal repro system.

At any rate.....time won't cure it!
 

BARNSCOOP

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mnmtranching,

I just wanted to answer your question.
This really started with me being concerned about it. I have very few cattle, less than 20 head, and one of the young heifers I bought in November is of concern. Now, I was counting on her to calve next year to met the demand for the "freezer" beef I sell to repeat customers. Knersie expressed to me that he believed she has some physical signs of being a freemartin. I know if she doesn't get bred I can go buy a replacement calf for that years crop but I don't like to do that. I market my beef in such a way that people are attracted to the fact that our farm is transparent, we keep detailed records and raise it as close to organic as possible. I don't like having to open up the herd again to bring someone from a salebarn in, that's just me. I complete see why larger operations don't have the need to be very concerned but I am small.
 

dun

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whitecow":26m221hn said:
I don't think Freemartins are caused by genes. They are caused by antimullerian hormone. All fetuses, in effect, start out as female. Male fetuses begin secreting antimullerian hormone which prevents development of the female reproduct tract. Because bovine fraternal twins (unlike human) share the same amniotic sac, the female fetus is exposed to the hormone secreted from the male. The result can be anything from not having a repro tract at all, to the very rare event of having a normal repro system.

At any rate.....time won't cure it!
The way the blood test finds freemarins is via presence of the/a male chromosome as UC Davis explained it to me.
 

whitecow

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I think what the blood test actually identifies is an antigen (H-Y) to the bull's Y-chromosome, since the twins shared their blood supply. The heifer's chromosomal DNA is still XX. And it's the hormones produced by the Sertoli cells in the male fetal testes that cause the problem. But, heck, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong! And my mouth is too big for it to be the last....
 

bigbull338

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first off the guy you talked to is full of bull.a freemartin heifer doesnt have a reproductive tract.an they cant grow a repro tract.freemartins are twins.a heifer bull twin.i went to our local sale barn 2wks ago.an they seperated the bull an heifer calves.selling the bull calves 1st.then selling the heifer calves.an they tubed the calves.thus allowing them to call the freemartin heifer calves.an the freemartin heifers sold for $25 to $60.
 

dun

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bigbull338":1tdkzghw said:
first off the guy you talked to is full of bull.a freemartin heifer doesnt have a reproductive tract.an they cant grow a repro tract.freemartins are twins.a heifer bull twin.i went to our local sale barn 2wks ago.an they seperated the bull an heifer calves.selling the bull calves 1st.then selling the heifer calves.an they tubed the calves.thus allowing them to call the freemartin heifer calves.an the freemartin heifers sold for $25 to $60.

As someone else has stated, freemartins can range any where form having a penis to having full repro tracts but not adequate hormones to maintain a pregnancy. If it was only as simple as the tube test they wouldn;t need blood tests.
 

dun

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whitecow":34bbv9ol said:
I think what the blood test actually identifies is an antigen (H-Y) to the bull's Y-chromosome, since the twins shared their blood supply. The heifer's chromosomal DNA is still XX. And it's the hormones produced by the Sertoli cells in the male fetal testes that cause the problem. But, heck, it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong! And my mouth is too big for it to be the last....
They may have "dumbed it down" to something simple enough that I could understand when they explained it.
 

hillsdown

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I just wanted to add that they is more to it than sharing a sac . I have had flush cows with embryos left in after flushing each had their own sac, the heifer calf was a free martin , she had a uterus and cervix but no ovaries or fallopian tubes (yes it was a dairy heifer).

The next time I am concerned I will just do a blood test.
 

dun

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hillsdown":19vn90o0 said:
I just wanted to add that they is more to it than sharing a sac . I have had flush cows with embryos left in after flushing each had their own sac, the heifer calf was a free martin , she had a uterus and cervix but no ovaries or fallopian tubes (yes it was a dairy heifer).

The next time I am concerned I will just do a blood test.

They don;t have to share the same sack or even the same placenta. The hormones are circulating through both calves.
 
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CKC1586

CKC1586

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dun":120sj3wv said:
whitecow":120sj3wv said:
I don't think Freemartins are caused by genes. They are caused by antimullerian hormone. All fetuses, in effect, start out as female. Male fetuses begin secreting antimullerian hormone which prevents development of the female reproduct tract. Because bovine fraternal twins (unlike human) share the same amniotic sac, the female fetus is exposed to the hormone secreted from the male. The result can be anything from not having a repro tract at all, to the very rare event of having a normal repro system.

At any rate.....time won't cure it!
The way the blood test finds freemarins is via presence of the/a male chromosome as UC Davis explained it to me.
Aha! That is what I said, the blood test confirmed that she was positive so how on earth could that change??? I could not/can not get it to make sense to me that anything would change her status...
 
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CKC1586

CKC1586

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BARNSCOOP":2qzsmkvm said:
mnmtranching,

I just wanted to answer your question.
This really started with me being concerned about it. I have very few cattle, less than 20 head, and one of the young heifers I bought in November is of concern. Now, I was counting on her to calve next year to met the demand for the "freezer" beef I sell to repeat customers. Knersie expressed to me that he believed she has some physical signs of being a freemartin. I know if she doesn't get bred I can go buy a replacement calf for that years crop but I don't like to do that. I market my beef in such a way that people are attracted to the fact that our farm is transparent, we keep detailed records and raise it as close to organic as possible. I don't like having to open up the herd again to bring someone from a salebarn in, that's just me. I complete see why larger operations don't have the need to be very concerned but I am small.

Exactly, I hear you. I have VERY few cattle as well and am trying to build so every set back puts me a year further behind so I understand completely your concern. I like the discussions here and the diverse opinions but facts are facts and I just cannot get my mind to wrap around how on earth once a blood test confirms that an animal is a freemartin that any length of time could possibly change that fact. It isn't like she was tested for a presence of something in her blood such as white cells or whatever that can change. A chromosome doesn't change, right?!
 

dun

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CKC1586":29yltcjg said:
A chromosome doesn't change, right?!

It must. Afterall, how often have you heard someone say they use a young bull on heifers so it will throw a small calf?
 

hillsdown

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dun":295rt93p said:
CKC1586":295rt93p said:
A chromosome doesn't change, right?!

It must. After all, how often have you heard someone say they use a young bull on heifers so it will throw a small calf?

Now that is the best thing I have heard in a long time... LMAO Dun, thanks for that I needed a chuckle.. :clap: :clap: :lol2:
 

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