Follower or Leader

[greenwillowherefords]

Seems like many registered breeders chase the latest fad. If someone has a popular operation or "hot" new animal, they throw caution to the wind and plunge in headfirst, chiding the rest of us for not joining them. I understand that progress is made through new animals-those that prove to be what they should be, which is a fairly small percentage. One breeder told me, "You have some nice-looking calves," continuing to basically say that if I wanted to really progress and have popular cattle, etc., I should follow a certain bloodline etc.

My position is that everyone can't chase the same bloodline and maintain a diverse genetic base, most bloodlines have their strong and weak points, and we progress partially by finding a good blend to maximize the strong points and minimize the weak ones. You can either let someone else do the innovating and follow them all the time, or you can realize that your opinion may be as good as theirs, and do some innovating of your own. ;-)

In this area there is a nationally famous breeding program in the Hereford breed. They have good cattle, although the whispers are that they "sure like to eat." Also in this area there is the Flying G Ranch, an old but more locally known program. The Flying G cattle are more efficient, and their average weaning weight is heavier without creep than the nationally famous program's is with creep. Flying G doesn't even sell semen on any of their bulls.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Good points Willow.
Find the breed you like and the line that fits your operation and be happy.
Caustic once stated he had never meet a Cattleman you could change his mind on what breed to run. I hate to but I have to agree with that, you couldn't change mine.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

I can't feature myself ever changing breeds. I can see the possibility of someday having a commercial herd too, but they would be Hereford and Hereford cross.

Another thought; I still would choose actual performance over EPDs. Just because everyone else is chasing the latest high-EPD champ doesn't mean we all have to jump on the bandwagon. Wait and see what his EPDs look like when the accuracies top 90%! I've noticed that most of the EPDs drop when the actual data comes in in quantity.

Now I'm not trying to start another EPD quarrel here.

Don't depend on others to do your research and homework for you, get out there and beat the bushes and find the real, practical, functional cattle from the lesser known as well as the big shots, and build your own dynasty instead of constantly trying to copy someone else.

 

[Frankie]

IAnother thought; I still would choose actual performance over EPDs. Just because everyone else is chasing the latest high-EPD champ doesn't mean we all have to jump on the bandwagon. Wait and see what his EPDs look like when the accuracies top 90%! I've noticed that most of the EPDs drop when the actual data comes in in quantity.

The problem with selecting your breeding stock by performance alone is that management plays such a role in performance. My neighbor uses many of the same Angus bulls as I use. But since he creeps his calves, his weaning weights are heavier than mine. If you selected your bulls only on performance, you'd probably buy his instead of mine. But if you look at the EPDs on our cattle, they are very similar because the genetics are similar. I would also disagree that "most" EPDs drop when the actual data comes in. I use very few young bulls, but if you select properly, you don't have to worry about much dropoff in EPDs.

Don't depend on others to do your research and homework for you, get out there and beat the bushes and find the real, practical, functional cattle from the lesser known as well as the big shots, and build your own dynasty instead of constantly trying to copy someone else.

Why wouldn't you use other people's successes and failures to help build your own herd? There's no reason to reinvent the wheel at every breeding. Would you go buy a washing machine or car if you knew it was a sorry piece of equipment? Wait for that bull's accuracies to get to a point that you feel comfortable, get out and look at some calves, see how the commercial cattlemen bid when his sons come into the ring, then if his EPDs hold up, use him. I don't consider that "copy"ing someone else. It's just cutting the odds that you won't be happy with your calf crop. Under the best of circumstances, there are no guarantees anyway.

 

[amazed]

I can't feature myself ever changing breeds. I can see the possibility of someday having a commercial herd too, but they would be Hereford and Hereford cross.

Another thought; I still would choose actual performance over EPDs. Just because everyone else is chasing the latest high-EPD champ doesn't mean we all have to jump on the bandwagon. Wait and see what his EPDs look like when the accuracies top 90%! I've noticed that most of the EPDs drop when the actual data comes in in quantity.

Now I'm not trying to start another EPD quarrel here.

Don't depend on others to do your research and homework for you, get out there and beat the bushes and find the real, practical, functional cattle from the lesser known as well as the big shots, and build your own dynasty instead of constantly trying to copy someone else.

The only way you can compare animals on actual performance is calves managed the same, within the same herd and within a similar age spread to account for environmental influences ie: a 90 day window. Hey.....that's the way EPDs are calculated.

Actual performance plus EPDs gives you a more complete picture as it will also indicate an animal which may be an anomally or outlier. Of course accuracies must also be considered.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Nowhere in my post will you see that I said to disregard EPDs. To clarify what I meant, let me put it this way: If I'm looking at two animals in the same herd, and one of them has better EPDs but significantly less performance, and this is not an isolated incident that the lower EPD cow consistently raises a better calf, given similar carcass quality, I'm going to go for the lower EPD animal if it has consistently performed better in the same herd!

Scenario 2: "Big Name" operation in my area averages 650 pound calves and they creep feed. They sell their bulls from $1,500-3,500 or more. The $1,500 bulls they say are for commercial herds, not registered. You have to go up to the $2,500-3,500 range to get their best carcass and EPDs, and they are still pushing it to make a 700 lb. weaning weight on creep. Meanwhile, in the price range of the big-name "commercial grade" bulls, I can buy my pick of the crop at Flying G Ranch,(also in my area) and we are talking about older bulls at FG too. The Flying G bulls have at least as good 205 day weight averages without creep, and their birthweights are significantly lower, they are sired by nationally respected bloodlines, they are proven easier doing and fleshing by those who have owned both; and respected Hereford breeders quietly tell me that they are as good as any in the country. Where do you think I will go? I have made my deal on a Flying G bull with an actual 205 of 740 pounds without creep, and a BW of 70 lbs. He is sired by an HVH Hudson bull who has Optimum ZO3 and Feltons in his pedigree. Very respectable carcass background on the sire.
I'm saying don't limit yourself only to the big names. Sometimes there are some breeding decisions some have made that I want to go back and circumvent with the right bloodlines that didn't chase certain fads!

 

[plbcattle]

i have taken the approach to let past results dictate my breeding decision. I don't claim to be the best cowboy but I like my cattle and I enjoy matching up family lines that are proven. There are plenty of people with new genetics and are very sucessful. but for every one you hit you probably pop up 10. I like to buy proven donors that have a track record of preformance. I then mate her to proven bulls and occasionaly the new hot bull. I am not smart enough to take a risk. My cattle are pretty predictable because I am not trying to re-invent the wheel. to those who have first generation animals I respect your willingness to try new things.

 

[greenwillowherefords]

i have taken the approach to let past results dictate my breeding decision. I don't claim to be the best cowboy but I like my cattle and I enjoy matching up family lines that are proven. There are plenty of people with new genetics and are very sucessful. but for every one you hit you probably pop up 10. I like to buy proven donors that have a track record of preformance. I then mate her to proven bulls and occasionaly the new hot bull. I am not smart enough to take a risk. My cattle are pretty predictable because I am not trying to re-invent the wheel. to those who have first generation animals I respect your willingness to try new things.

Good points. I like the idea of taking some VERY old proven bloodlines, and blending them with some newer proven bloodlines to try to achieve a result with the best traits of both bloodlines. For instance, if I can add the longevity of one to the top-end performance of the other, etc. If I can put some efficiency that I feel has been lost in certain breeding decisions along the way back in with the hot carcass and growth cattle that may tend to be a little harder doing in range conditions. Learn from others' mistakes as well as build on their success, and don't think just the folks that can afford full-page ads have the only success.

 

[cattleluvr18]

yeah like at my fair for the maket class all it is, is maine anjou or angus. i think is b-s. so i got a red angus because i believe that its stupid to have all of one thing. i like uniqueness and my calves are no exception. same with breeding---all maine or angus so i got a shorthorn and a hereford. screw the black. i kno im gonna get alot of bad comments about that but why would you want them all the same. say what you want, its not gonna change my mind.

 

[movin' on]

Green willow, I think you are right on. I buy my bulls from a local breeder....very small time guy. They are Angus bulls that he has blended from all over the country. I will put his bulls up against anybody elses bulls and I mean that. I don't have the EPD's memorized so no one has to bother asking me for them...sorry! I really don't need to see the EPD's to decide whether his bulls are right for me or not. The bulls are the thickest, deepest, widest, most powerful bulls I have ever seen in the Angus industry. They take a backseat to no exotic breed in those areas and that is really hard to do with an Angus. He absolutely does not follow fads and that, I believe, has got him where he is today. One thing I do know about their EPD's....they are all plus on the birthweight! If my cows are not able to lay down and have a plus two or three or more on their own then I have no business expecting the calves to be big and soggy in the fall. Angus cattle are calving ease....they need very little help in that area...he is focusing on muscling and performance and that is not the fad in the Angus world.

 

[Beefy]

wow, more oldschool posts. this ones from 2004! yall had me excited, i thought greenwillow had returned to us.

 

[capt]

Good post greenwillow and I agree wholeheartedly. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a large well known breeder or the small time hidden gem type of breeder, especially when those genetics work well on/in your herd and become porfitable. I have to agree that more times than not in the hereford breed the 'big name jump the gun guy on the new hot young bull' type doesnt cut the mustard when all is said and done. A note to all breeders: when you tire of finding areas to improve your cattle, it is time to walk away. Thanks for the post!

 

[DOC HARRIS]

i kno im gonna get alot of bad comments about that but why would you want them all the same. say what you want, its not gonna change my mind.

OK - I won't even try to "change your mind". Why would anyone even WANT to try to change the mind of someone who will close their eyes, and block their ears, and grit their teeth, and draw their head into their shoulders like a turtle, and REFUSE to consider something that might, just MIGHT, make a difference in their profit at the end of the year, make their family life more comfortable, maybe even open up their 'attitude' to a more relaxed way of making a living that they could perform with less effort and more profit, and, for cryin' out loud, perhaps even extend their life a few more happy years??

N-a-w-w-w! I won't even answer your question as to why I would want them all the same - or CONSISTENT! Consistent growth, consistent size, consistent Yearling Weights bring CONSISTENT customers to my marketing product, but - heck no - I won't even tell you that because you have your mind MADE UP - by Golly - and the fact that Feedlot Managers, Order Buyers, Packer Buyers and just plain old potential customers for live animals are all looking for Profitable Livestock which are CONSISTENTLY looking the same, CONSISTENTLY maturing at the same rate, CONSISTENTLY costing less to market doesn't make an impression on your "ALREADY-MADE-UP-MIND,-AND-WHY-WOULD-YOU-WANT-THEM-ALL-THE-SAME" bow-necked attitude. N-a-w-w-w, I wouldn't waste my time saying what I want, because YOU are NOT goin' to change YOUR mind. So I won't even say why I would want them all the same! Why - - I wouldn't think about given' you a lot of bad comments about why you should have them all the same! I CONSISTENTLY refuse to say anything about why your cattle should be all the SAME! - - -'cause YOU aren't LISTENING! or LOOKING! or THINKING!!

Good Luck with your INCONSISTENT COLORFUL herd!

DOC HARRIS

 

[movin' on]

Wow Doc.....you're getting pretty saucy tonight!!!!!!!!! I LOVE IT!!!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

wow, more oldschool posts. this ones from 2004! yall had me excited, i thought greenwillow had returned to us.

Beefy - your comment went over their head. ORIGINAL post was dated 2004!
Where is Greenwillow?

 

[Shorthornguy]

Great post DOC HARRIS. I agree. In any business, when we stop looking for improvements, changes, and paradigmn shifts we might as well sell the business.

 

[ga. prime]

I don't know where greenwillow is, but I know why he quit posting. His religious sensibilities got stepped on.

 

[1848]

wow, more oldschool posts. this ones from 2004! yall had me excited, i thought greenwillow had returned to us.

Beefy - your comment went over their head. ORIGINAL post was dated 2004!
Where is Greenwillow?

:nod:

 

[cattleluvr18]

whats wrong with a little bit of variety?? im am deffenetly not one of those kind of people who shuts down when people tell them exactly what they dont want to hear when its actually something the need to hear. those kind of people need a slap on the face. the only reason i said that is for people like you who are gonna try and convince me that im doin everything wrong with my cow herd and what colors i want my calves. just because i have a few that dont mix in with my angus and maines doesnt mean that they arnt the same size -or CONSISTENT!! wats so bad when there are different people looking for different type of breed and lookie here---we get 2 different costomers rather than just one because we just have one breed.

and thanks....im am having WONDERFUL luck with my inconsistent colorful herd...thanks for caring!

 

[cattleluvr18]

whats wrong with a little bit of variety?? im am deffenetly not one of those kind of people who shuts down when people tell them exactly what they dont want to hear when its actually something the need to hear. those kind of people need a slap on the face. the only reason i said that is for people like you who are gonna try and convince me that im doin everything wrong with my cow herd and what colors i want my calves. just because i have a few that dont mix in with my angus and maines doesnt mean that they arnt the same size -or CONSISTENT!! wats so bad when there are different people looking for different type of breed and lookie here---we get 2 different costomers rather than just one because we just have one breed.

and thanks....im am having WONDERFUL luck with my inconsistent colorful herd...thanks for caring outside of your so called "cosistent world"