Flaboys challenge

[flaboy+]

Hey Alan, ever see one swell up in the jaw area a few days after this procedure? I got home last night a he had some pretty good swelling on the left side of his jaw. Right side was not bad if at all. It initially looked like a snake bite knot but I looked it over pretty good and suspect it must be some reaction to the drugs. I never saw this on my other two when we cut them.

The vet said she would call me in the next day or two. She hasn't called but I think I will call her today and ask her if she see's this sometimes.

 

[Alan]

Flaboy,

I would be surprised if it had anything to do with the procedure, other than him thrashing around when he came out of it. Did the Vet put him all the way down, or just enough to keep him standing? Is it soft tissue swelling? if so he problably hit it on something coming out of the sedation. May even be a tooth problem being the age he is.

Let me know.
Alan

 

[flaboy+]

Flaboy,

I would be surprised if it had anything to do with the procedure, other than him thrashing around when he came out of it. Did the Vet put him all the way down, or just enough to keep him standing? Is it soft tissue swelling? if so he problably hit it on something coming out of the sedation. May even be a tooth problem being the age he is.

Let me know.
Alan

No, she cut him Monday. Put him down. He never bumped his head. I had him in my back yard. It is soft tissue. I thought maybe a tooth or something. I just saw it yesterday. Nothing Tuesday night, just last night when I got home. It did look better this morning when I looked at it but then again it was still dark at 5:30AM.

 

[Alan]

Flaboy,

I would be surprised if it had anything to do with the procedure, other than him thrashing around when he came out of it. Did the Vet put him all the way down, or just enough to keep him standing? Is it soft tissue swelling? if so he problably hit it on something coming out of the sedation. May even be a tooth problem being the age he is.

Let me know.
Alan

No, she cut him Monday. Put him down. He never bumped his head. I had him in my back yard. It is soft tissue. I thought maybe a tooth or something. I just saw it yesterday. Nothing Tuesday night, just last night when I got home. It did look better this morning when I looked at it but then again it was still dark at 5:30AM.

That's what I'm thinking too, a tooth problem.
Alan

 

[flaboy+]

Well, I got home last night and checked on the boy and he had very little swelling so I didn't call the vet. Still a little puffy but not bad at all.

I can already see the difference in this boy. :lol:

 

[warpaint]

You took away his pride and joy. What else has he got to do, may as well act right. :lol:

 

[flaboy+]

Naw, he still has his pride. He just won't have no joy. :lol: :shock:

 

[flaboy+]

Flaboy,

I would be surprised if it had anything to do with the procedure, other than him thrashing around when he came out of it. Did the Vet put him all the way down, or just enough to keep him standing? Is it soft tissue swelling? if so he problably hit it on something coming out of the sedation. May even be a tooth problem being the age he is.

Let me know.
Alan

Well the vet called Friday evening. She didn't have a clue as to the cause of the swelling. She said in rare cases the Tetanus shot could cause the glands to swell up there. She thought it was a bite but didn't know what could cause the tennis ball size knot he had in initially. I was up at the farm adding on to the hay barn all weekend and when I got back late last night I checked and you can't even tell it was ever swollen. Swollen, is that a word?

 

[Alan]

Flaboy,

I would be surprised if it had anything to do with the procedure, other than him thrashing around when he came out of it. Did the Vet put him all the way down, or just enough to keep him standing? Is it soft tissue swelling? if so he problably hit it on something coming out of the sedation. May even be a tooth problem being the age he is.

Let me know.
Alan

Well the vet called Friday evening. She didn't have a clue as to the cause of the swelling. She said in rare cases the Tetanus shot could cause the glands to swell up there. She thought it was a bite but didn't know what could cause the tennis ball size knot he had in initially. I was up at the farm adding on to the hay barn all weekend and when I got back late last night I checked and you can't even tell it was ever swollen. Swollen, is that a word?

I've seen a tooth breaking the gum cause swelling but not that big. When my gelding was a yearling he must have got stung or bit on his sheath it swelled to the size of a softball and was pretty tender.

Alan

 

[flaboy-]

OK, here is the latest update. I picked up my cattle panels from the hay barn and made a round pen. Not real big, about 33 feet or so. I took the filly in just before dark the first night and she did really well for her first time.

Last night I took Idiot in and he did pretty well after I got his attention. He wanted to get me twice but I could see he changed his mind. I had him going CW and CCW and then stop. I was able to approach him even though he stopped with his head towards the fence. I thought he would bolt but didn't. He did make one try like he was going to bolt but I stepped to his rear and over to the direction he was about to bolt in. He let me rub him and followed me to the gate and I let him out.

Then I went and got the filly. She did well until she got bored I guess because she was only in there maybe 10 minutes before she got stubborn. She wanted to come in to me and stop. She did this a couple times. I finally stepped to her rear and popped her on the heals with a buggy whip. Neither would respond much to my lead rope attempt. I got her to go CW and CCW a few more laps, stopped her praised her and let her out. I guess she just gets lazy and needs more pressure to keep her going.

I thought Idiot would be worse than he was but he responds to pressure pretty well. I will try to use my Lariat tonight instead of the buggy whip on him at least. Not sure the filly will do much with just that. She was hard to reverse a few times but I got her reversed. This is my first ever attempt at round pen training as I have said in the past, I always did things the old fashion way (rodeo at 2 YO).

Any advice from you guys who have done this type of training will be well received by me. I can see the benefits of this training especially since I have another 11 months on both before I get on their backs.

 

[CattleAnnie]

Flaboy,

Sounds like you're having fun. I've got my hands full here right now too, as I'm currently starting two four year olds that I picked up (one is a big time over reactive kind of horse that loves to buck when saddled - so we've got a few kinks to get worked out yet before I step up on him), a five year old big grulla mare that I'm fine tuning for sale, and a two year old stud prospect that I'm laying the foundations on.

Anyway, not much of an expert with the round pen, but basically here's how I understand it to work.

In theory it's effective because you use pressure and the release of pressure as a reward, much the same as horses do to each other when showing dominance.

When you introduce two horses to each other in a pen, the dominant horse through body language (and sometimes a few well timed nips or kicks) will herd the less dominant horse around the pen.

When he feels that the less dominant horse understands the pecking order, he will back off the chase and ignore it.

So what I do is use pressure (as in me getting into the horse's 'comfort zone') to move the horse around and exert my dominance. This includes making the horse change direction by blocking their forward motion and increasing pressure to speed them up.

And don't give them a break until they start submitting, which sometimes is as subtle as nodding the head or licking the lips as they're circling.

With some horses that are fairly strong minded this can take quite a few laps - usually they'll exhibit signs that they don't want to submit such as keeping their face turned away from you as they circle or turning their hind ends towards you.

You'll know you're winning when the head starts turning into you and the horse begins to keep an ear turned in your direction - big sign as he's now prepared to at least take your position seriously.

The reward part is when you take the pressure off, so for example, say I'm round penning a saddle horse that's become a real dinkus to catch.

I'll make him do some laps until I can see that he's nodding or licking his lips, and then I'll say "whoa" in a clear firm voice, and then I'll step away from him and turn my back to him.

This in effect takes the pressure off of him, and it's amazing how quickly they'll pick up on it. They usually need this repeated a couple of times, and next thing you know when you say "whoa" that horse will stop.

Some folks like the horse to 'join up' with them (approach them once the pressure is taken away), but personally I like them to stay put once I give the 'whoa' command.

If the horse starts to move away before I 'ask' him to, then I'll put the pressure back on him and keep him moving and changing directions until he shows signs again that he's submitting.

Once he's got the 'whoa' down pat, I'll start by slowly walking up to him a few steps at a time and repeating the 'whoa' command. If he stays put, then I'll eventually work my way up to him until I'm close enough to give him a few rubs on the neck, repeating the command.

If he moves off at any time without being asked, it's back to some more laps again. If you keep at it, eventually he'll understand that it's less work for him to 'whoa' than it is to make laps.

It's amazing how well this works, as every horse that I've done this with will let me walk up to them and catch them in a big pasture even though they're with twenty other horses, even though they've been worked hard the day before.

Basically, you use the pen as a tool to punish improper behaviour by making the horse work, and reward good behaviour by letting the horse rest. It's even great for hard to bridle horses - if the horse doesn't let me put the bridle on, then he sweats. He stands nicley and get bridled and he rests.

Anyway, this is just sort of how I'm muddling through. So far it's working, but I'm looking forward to hearing how other folks utilze their penning techniques.

Sorry, just looking over what I wrote and it kind of ended up long winded. :oops:


Take care and have fun with your colts.

 

[V_Key]

My Dad and I Don’t put up with this Crap!

Teach him to Hobble
Split a feed sack open and Cut a 6” wide strip out of it - - Fold it twice so it’s 2” wide - - Take this fellow out in the middle of a field where he can’t hurt himself.

Start high on his front, Off side, leg if you half to and put the center of that strip around his leg - - take 3 to 6 turn in the sack-strip – slide it down and tie it around the on-side foot with a square note - - Back off and use the lead rope and halter to keep him from hitting his head on the ground when he throws himself and he will throw himself – but he’ll soon learn to Hobble.

A couple times like this and you can change to Leather Hbbles.

Warm weather is coming – Tie him with Hobbles to a good post by a hose bibe and stand back and hose him down every day until he’s quite and does not fight the water (Careful around his Head)

A little bucket or feed and lots of Praise helps.

Note:
Horses can learn to run faster with Hopples on – a lead rope snapped to the Hobbles will stop this. - - I teach my horses to Hobble front and back - - I’ve had horses get caught up in wire and stand and wait for me to come and unhobble them…

Saves on Vet Bills

 

[V_Key]

Here is a good link - http://www.naturalhorsesupply.com/tying.shtml - Dad did the same type of thing for years but he used a rubber Tube to tie the horse to - Dad rode horses with an Old Timer Named Charlie Maggine - many people consider Charlie the Best There Every was

This set up and be used to set a horses head with/in a bit.

If anyone wants to know... :cboy:

 

[flaboy-]

My Dad and I Don’t put up with this Crap!



A couple times like this and you can change to Leather Hbbles.

- - I teach my horses to Hobble front and back - - I’ve had horses get caught up in wire and stand and wait for me to come and unhobble them…

Saves on Vet Bills

V_Key I appreciate any and all input. I am curious as which behavior you are referring to that you would hobble them. I don't like to ridicule anyone's techniques but I really don't like to hobble horses. It would be the very last thing I would do to him.

I did like the article on high tying. That is interesting and I might just try that as I was getting ready to start tie training anyway. I use an old rubber inner tube but have had problems with horse in the past getting themselves wrapped around stuff. This sounds like I could use the tube and not have to worry about them getting wrapped up.

Do you guys by chance tie one front leg up when you first get on an unbroken horse? Just curious and trust me I mean no disrespect.

 

[Alan]

Flaboy,

Sounds like your first session in the round pen went pretty well. I think things will get better as the sessions go on. The horses need to figure out what s going on also. It sounds like it's a pretty good round pen, the size should be pretty good, JMO, but remember the smaller to circle the harder it is on young legs at a run. I your colt putting an ear on you yet and chewing (or licks) as you work him or chews or licks when you stop him? But to me it sounded like a normal first, second or third session.

I agree with you on the hobble issue, the key is to gain your horses trust in order to start him/her well.

Alan

 

[flaboy-]

Alan, yes I did get some chewing and he did have his inside ear on me. I managed some chewing out of the filly but not as much. I too thought it went pretty well for the first time in but then again I have never trained a horse like this. I wanted some input as to opinions of how it went. Thanks

 

[V_Key]

I am curious as which behavior you are referring to that you would hobble them. I don't like to ridicule anyone's techniques but I really don't like to hobble horses. It would be the very last thing I would do to him.

It was late last night and this is a long thread and I didn't read the whole thing.
My Dad is Old School
To make a horse stand STILL and teach it Pacification he Hobbles it.
Step #1 Halter Break
Step #2 Teach it to Hobble

It would be the very last thing I would do to him.

Why :???: Almost everything you want to do with a horse centers around "The Horse Standing Still.

One reason Story:
I went to feed one morrning - one mare was standing out in the field and did not come in - I thought that funny but...

That Night she was standing in the same place so I walked out to LOOK - some where some how she had a Bailing Wire tangled up around both front feet and was just standing there. (Hobbled)
----
When we pack-in we hobble horses at night and let them grase around camp

I did like the article on high tying. That is interesting and I might just try that as I was getting ready to start tie training anyway. I use an old rubber inner tube but have had problems with horse in the past getting themselves wrapped around stuff. This sounds like I could use the tube and not have to worry about them getting wrapped up.

Caution:
Always use some kind of a Quick Release

Step #1
Start High tieing the horse in a Boxstall - They are use of the small space - Check the horse up so it head can only move 2' or 3' off of Center of the Stall

We have a Big Oak Tree (4' in dia) We have rings on 4 sides - one @ 4' high for old horses and one above that @ 7' were foals learn to tie

Side Note:
One 6" ring has grown onto the tree and you can just get a rope through it.

This Ol Oak has ropes hanging from limbs in several places.
At some of these hanging ropes dad has 2/16' PowerRiver Panels set-up to make an alley - when we tie a horse here it can only move forward or back.

Dad use this in many ways so horses train Their Selves:
Teaching a horse to give to a bite (Head Set) - run the reins back through the Palmmel (sp) and up to the rope - put a pipe or post behind the horse (in the panel) so the horse can only back up to where the reins hang over the saddle. When the horse moves forward it learn to give to the Bite and moves back. This can also be used in a Boxstall.

Do you guys by chance tie one front leg up when you first get on an unbroken horse? Just curious and trust me I mean no disrespect.

I have never seen a horse Buck with Dad (other than a playful crow-hop) He claims he KNOWS HORSES - The Trick is to "always one step ahead of them." (Some people are born with "THAT" - some can Learn "THAT" - some never learn "THAT") It's like Curley said in City Slickers
When you know THAT ONE THING :!:

"That" hinges on the subject also :!:

He says that when he was a "Bronc Stomper" and not yet a "Horse Trainer" this is one of the tricks he used.

I mean no disrespect

None Taken :!:
I've been taught to keep my mouth shut/my eyes & ears open and to learn how everyone dose it...
"Then Pick and Chose what work for you" :!:
"We're all Born Dumb but SOME Learn" :!:

I learn alot in just typing his word :!: we talk and send this to his Grandchildern

 

[V_Key]

Flaboy,

I agree with you on the hobble issue, the key is to gain your horses trust in order to start him/her well.

Alan

Dad was taught that by an Old Timer and it has worked well for him - (Training +/- 60 horses a year for 50+ years)

"Some horses are Rideable but few are Broke :!: :(

 

[V_Key]

I picked up my cattle panels from the hay barn and made a round pen.

What we call an Excerise Pen :!:

A true Round Breaking Pen is 30' to 60' x 6' to 8' high - Soild pannels so the horse has no where to look but at you with slant walls so you don't hit your legs as you ride.

We put out money into Pens and equipment then Fancy Trailers :!: True :cboy: not City :cboy:

No Disrespect :!:

 

[flaboy-]

OK, here is the latest update from this weekend. I put Idiot in the pen around 9AM Sat morning. I used a lariat rather than a buggy whip. He responds well to pressure so just flipping the lariat up makes him go. I had him doing CW and CCW. Some turns he would want put his ears back and fight me but decided against it and made the turns and went on his way. After maybe 10 minutes of this I would say "whoa" and he stopped. I could approach him but he was ready to bolt but didn't. He got to where after maybe 20-30 minutes I could say "whoa" and he would stop and sometimes look at me but mostly looked for the filly.

I worked the filly right after him. She DID NOT WANT to go. I had to be very assertive to get her going. She too wanted to fight me on turning but did it any way. "Whoa" is what she does best :-).

Sunday morning same time I put Idiot in the pen and walked him around on the lead both CW and CCW. Then I let him go and eased up behind him out of of his hip, waved my lariat and he started to walk. First time he has walked. Always wanted to trot, lope, or run. I let him walk about 4 laps and put pressure on him to a trot. Turns were easy, predictable and towards the fence every time. If I had a camera his session could have been used for a training tape. He did every thing perfectly. He would stop head facing away and turn his neck to look at me. He even let me approach with the lariat in my hand and I put it up on his butt and then drug it up to his shoulders and he stood still. I did this a few times then the filly left the area and he could no longer see her. This is when it went bad. He did not want to "whoa", he fought me on turns. He would turn in towards me ears back, front legs up, but he would turn away from me. I made him do several more laps both directions but "whoa" was just about out of the question. If I approached with the lariat he would bolt when I got my hands on his butt. I wasn't about to let him get out without doing something I wanted so I finally did get the "whoa" and approached and rubbed him and then turned him out.

I went and got the filly and she did really well. I was able to use the lariat instead of the buggy whip to get her started. At first I had to stay on her butt and flip it but soon she was moving well. Always before she would fight me on turns and mostly turn in towards me. Today she would turn away and with very little pressure. I thought she did very well.

Now I go out to catch Idiot to take him and the filly out to another pasture and he won't let me catch him. Unlike the day before after training. Sat I just walked up to him after working the filly and caught him. I finally got ahold of him and lead him out.

Now I am wondering if I screwed up in the last few minutes of round penning him. HE was doing so bad at the end that I would run him half a lap and turn him, run him half a lap and turn him. I did this maybe six or seven times. Then I got him to stop, approached him, praised him, lead him out. I never had to actually touch him or the filly with the rope and never did.

Where did I go wrong the final portion Sunday? Like I said he was picture perfect until the filly got out of site.

Sorry about the long post but no other way to best describe the sessions.