First heifers advice requested

[tampamiketaylor]

Hey guys,

I have 3 registered Angus Heifers that I am about to AI and need advice if the bull I picked out may have too high BW. Out of all of the bulls I researched I like Rito Legacy. However his BW EDP is +2.1 with CED of +4. CED does not look bad but is +2.1 BW too high for first time Heifers?

My angus seem to be above average size, all very heavy, and over 2.5 years old. Please let me know what you think.

Thx,
Mike

 

[Cabo]

I am no expert on EPDs but I look at the actual birth weight of the bull about as much as his BW EPDs. If I liked the bull, I wouldn't let a 2.1 stop me.

 

[tampamiketaylor]

Thanks Cabo!

I could not find Rito Legacy actual weight but I will search a bit more.

Mike

 

[novaman]

If your breeding heifers at 2 and a half years of age they should be able to handle anything a cow would. They are going to be well over 3 years old before they have their first calf!

 

[tampamiketaylor]

Thanks Novaman!

I will go with Legacy then.

Thx
Mike

 

[Lucky_P]

Egads; Two and a half years old? What did you do, buy someone's non-breeders? I'd want mine to have a calf almost ready to wean by that age.
Ideally, you'd want any non-Zebu breed heifer to calve out before 27 months of age - the sutures of their pelvic bones fuse around that age, and if you can get 'em calved out before then, there's just a little more 'spread' or 'wiggle room' available to push a calf out.

Agree with novaman that they *should* be able to deliver a calf from a bull with a 2.1 BW epd - that's less than breed average for Angus, but unless they've changed their rating, ABS was not rating Legacy as a heifer bull - but those 3 and 4-star ratings are based on calving ease in heifers calving at 2 yrs of age.

I'd looked at Legacy to downsize and improve $EN on some larger-framed, light-muscled SimAngus cows in the herd, but his WW & YW are below breed average, and, in particular, his -5 CEM made him a no-starter for me, as I'm keeping heifers.
I know some folks who've been pleased with the muscling on their Legacy bull calves, but he just didn't fit my needs, but may be just what you're looking for.

 

[Oldtimer]

Hey guys,

I have 3 registered Angus Heifers that I am about to AI and need advice if the bull I picked out may have too high BW. Out of all of the bulls I researched I like Rito Legacy. However his BW EDP is +2.1 with CED of +4. CED does not look bad but is +2.1 BW too high for first time Heifers?

My angus seem to be above average size, all very heavy, and over 2.5 years old. Please let me know what you think.

Thx,
Mike

With larger framed/bigger heifers you probably will not have any problems--but Legacy does throw some very deep bodied and muscled calves from birth.. I have a Legacy son that had a 78 lb birthweight- that I've been using for 3 years- and he works great on all heifers (but his mother was a high calving ease cow with low BW)....
I haven't got the weaning weights on the bull and heifer calves I saved sired by him this year yet-- but the steer calves sired by him that I just sold looked great- and averaged 652 lbs (which made them worth $750 apiece )....

 

[redcowsrule33]

My angus seem to be above average size, all very heavy, and over 2.5 years old. Please let me know what you think.

By "heavy" do you mean muscled or fat? My biggest concern about heifers calving at over 3 years old is the amount of condition they could carry. In my experience if you want a bonafide train wreck calve out an old fat heifer. They can deposit a tremendous amount of fat in that pelvic canal. Do those heifers a favor and keep them from getting too fat, plus give them exercise so they are in shape and not feedlot lazy.

I am not an expert on BA EPD's, but I think I would go a bit more moderate in the calving ease department, especially when the bull's BW was only 82#. From what has been said on here it's probably the calve's shape that is making him harder calving and that is not something you want with these heifers in particular. I personally would go for an easier calving bull this time and if you still really like Legacy use him on the next go-around. JMHO.

 

[3waycross]

My angus seem to be above average size, all very heavy, and over 2.5 years old. Please let me know what you think.

By "heavy" do you mean muscled or fat? My biggest concern about heifers calving at over 3 years old is the amount of condition they could carry. In my experience if you want a bonafide train wreck calve out an old fat heifer. They can deposit a tremendous amount of fat in that pelvic canal. Do those heifers a favor and keep them from getting too fat, plus give them exercise so they are in shape and not feedlot lazy.

I am not an expert on BA EPD's, but I think I would go a bit more moderate in the calving ease department, especially when the bull's BW was only 82#. From what has been said on here it's probably the calve's shape that is making him harder calving and that is not something you want with these heifers in particular. I personally would go for an easier calving bull this time and if you still really like Legacy use him on the next go-around. JMHO.

GOOD POST!

 

[vclavin]

I don't know anything about that bull. I was told to never use a bull on heifers when CED is less that a 7. The CED takes into consideration "all" things that can cause calving problems and is more reliaable than the BW epd. I personally do not use bulls with over 2BW EPD's.
I'd also get those pelvic scores, better safe than sorry.
Rito 6I6 has been the best heifer bull we've used and well muscled calves out of him. Gentle animals.
Valerie

 

[tampamiketaylor]

Thanks guys!

Very solid advice! I bought these heifers when they were 6 months old and planned to AI them sooner but never got around to it. All of them are a little over weight but also have some good muscle and size to them. I will slack down the feed and get them in a little better shape before birth. I already have the Rito Legacy Straws on order but after i read all of your comments I may have to consider another bull for their first breeding. I know the CEM is -4 but legacy's Dam is Ideal 4465 which should have some great maternal traits influence. My goal is to keep any heifers that come out of this breeding.

I also considered Coalition 509, In focus, and New design 1407 but up till now landed on Rito Legacy. I will do some additional research and may hold off using these ordered straws.

thanks again!

Mike

 

[tampamiketaylor]

Oldtimer-

The heifers you kept out of him, you fairly pleased with them compared to other sires you used?

Thx,
Mike

Hey guys,

I have 3 registered Angus Heifers that I am about to AI and need advice if the bull I picked out may have too high BW. Out of all of the bulls I researched I like Rito Legacy. However his BW EDP is +2.1 with CED of +4. CED does not look bad but is +2.1 BW too high for first time Heifers?

My angus seem to be above average size, all very heavy, and over 2.5 years old. Please let me know what you think.

Thx,
Mike

With larger framed/bigger heifers you probably will not have any problems--but Legacy does throw some very deep bodied and muscled calves from birth.. I have a Legacy son that had a 78 lb birthweight- that I've been using for 3 years- and he works great on all heifers (but his mother was a high calving ease cow with low BW)....
I haven't got the weaning weights on the bull and heifer calves I saved sired by him this year yet-- but the steer calves sired by him that I just sold looked great- and averaged 652 lbs (which made them worth $750 apiece )....

 

[Oldtimer]

Oldtimer-

The heifers you kept out of him, you fairly pleased with them compared to other sires you used?

Thx,
Mike

Ya Mike- I like the looks of them... He definitely moderates or maintains moderate frame and added capacity, muscling and thickness to all his calves... Altho the Legacy bull is not getting high raves on his udders and teats- this sons maternal side had a pretty good shot of that with EXT and Viking GD-60 in his pedigree...
I guess I will not know what good or bad he did for our cow herd for several years....
Whitney Creek Legacy 726T-- 15800327

Here is a picture when I brought him in after the breeding season this summer- and he had rehurt a leg fighting- weighed 1800 lbs (54 inches hip height- just a 4 frame)...Very easy keeper that put on weight all thru breeding even tho he was always on the move checking out cows...

 

[angus9259]

D806 and BarEXT are the two sires I use on heifers - great numbers, and super high consistency.

 

[Oldtimer]

D806 and BarEXT are the two sires I use on heifers - great numbers, and super high consistency.

I have used N Bar Prime Time D806 also-- and will have about a half dozen daughters that will be having their first calves this coming spring.... So far- I really like them-- good moderate sized heifers- and very quiet and easy to work with....With Prime Times record for making momma cows- and throwing great udders and teats they should make me some good cows...

And D806 is definitely one of those proven "sleep all night" heifer bulls...Calves come small (65-75 lbs)- calving ease shaped- with lots of vigor- and are up and sucking in minutes.....I watched one heifer have a backward D806 calf on her own with no problems.....

 

[tampamiketaylor]

Thanks guys!

OT-Great looking bull in your picture! I will take a look at N Bar Prime Time D806

Mike

D806 and BarEXT are the two sires I use on heifers - great numbers, and super high consistency.

I have used N Bar Prime Time D806 also-- and will have about a half dozen daughters that will be having their first calves this coming spring.... So far- I really like them-- good moderate sized heifers- and very quiet and easy to work with....With Prime Times record for making momma cows- and throwing great udders and teats they should make me some good cows...

And D806 is definitely one of those proven "sleep all night" heifer bulls...Calves come small (65-75 lbs)- calving ease shaped- with lots of vigor- and are up and sucking in minutes.....I watched one heifer have a backward D806 calf on her own with no problems.....

 

[Oldtimer]

Thanks guys!

OT-Great looking bull in your picture! I will take a look at N Bar Prime Time D806

Mike

D806 and BarEXT are the two sires I use on heifers - great numbers, and super high consistency.

I have used N Bar Prime Time D806 also-- and will have about a half dozen daughters that will be having their first calves this coming spring.... So far- I really like them-- good moderate sized heifers- and very quiet and easy to work with....With Prime Times record for making momma cows- and throwing great udders and teats they should make me some good cows...

And D806 is definitely one of those proven "sleep all night" heifer bulls...Calves come small (65-75 lbs)- calving ease shaped- with lots of vigor- and are up and sucking in minutes.....I watched one heifer have a backward D806 calf on her own with no problems.....

Thanks Mike-- I had to get rid of that bull- because he reinjured an old wire cut- and it just wouldn't heal right in the location it was....But I have saved a son of his, out of a nice little Juanadmere cow #15822851-- that I will use next year as a cleanup bull on the heifers- and hopefully he will make a calving ease herd bull down the line....
But I don't think you can go wrong with D806- especially if you want to save heifers for momma cows- and are lazy like me and don't want to babysit heifers during calving.... ;-) :nod:

 

[Lucky_P]

I agree with OT on NBPT D806 - he's hard to beat for a calving ease sire. We've used him as our primary AI sire for about 4 years now - as a heifer bull and to moderate frame on calves from larger Simmental-influenced cows. Have bred 60+ cows & heifers to D806, and the calves come small - and often as much as 2 weeks early; have seen 1st-calf heifers lie down and squirt the calves out in 15 minutes - have only had one large calf by him - a big, dead 100 lb heifer out of a mature cow - and the dam may have been the culprit there, as her previous daughter by the natural service sire is the largest in her contemporary group.
The D806 calves are up quick and nursing; I try not to bother the little rascals for the first 48 hours, 'til they get bonded well with mom - had some the first season that would jump up and run a half-mile, crossing fences, roads, etc., if you spooked 'em on the first day. Dispositions have been good as they've grown - all are pretty tame.
But I will say this, D806 will sure take some frame off of 'em! That's one of the reasons we used him on the mature cows, but his high $EN, $W, CEM and marbling epds are big pluses if you're looking to retain heifers, IMO. Has 5 of the 6 tenderness gene markers, too.
Only have 2 D806 daughters in production so far - 1st-calf heifers out of big SimAngus cows, but they're making nice little cows with good udders and small teats; have another 15-18 D806 daughters in the pipeline, to calve out for the first time over the next 2 years.
Have a half-dozen Gardens Wave daughters on the ground this fall - was using him heavily on 1st calf heifers last year, until his -23 Docility score came out; may go back to him again, but not until I see how these calves shake out.

 

[tampamiketaylor]

Thanks Luck_p and OT!

I will go with D806 then- thank you!

Mike

I agree with OT on NBPT D806 - he's hard to beat for a calving ease sire. We've used him as our primary AI sire for about 4 years now - as a heifer bull and to moderate frame on calves from larger Simmental-influenced cows. Have bred 60+ cows & heifers to D806, and the calves come small - and often as much as 2 weeks early; have seen 1st-calf heifers lie down and squirt the calves out in 15 minutes - have only had one large calf by him - a big, dead 100 lb heifer out of a mature cow - and the dam may have been the culprit there, as her previous daughter by the natural service sire is the largest in her contemporary group.
The D806 calves are up quick and nursing; I try not to bother the little rascals for the first 48 hours, 'til they get bonded well with mom - had some the first season that would jump up and run a half-mile, crossing fences, roads, etc., if you spooked 'em on the first day. Dispositions have been good as they've grown - all are pretty tame.
But I will say this, D806 will sure take some frame off of 'em! That's one of the reasons we used him on the mature cows, but his high $EN, $W, CEM and marbling epds are big pluses if you're looking to retain heifers, IMO. Has 5 of the 6 tenderness gene markers, too.
Only have 2 D806 daughters in production so far - 1st-calf heifers out of big SimAngus cows, but they're making nice little cows with good udders and small teats; have another 15-18 D806 daughters in the pipeline, to calve out for the first time over the next 2 years.
Have a half-dozen Gardens Wave daughters on the ground this fall - was using him heavily on 1st calf heifers last year, until his -23 Docility score came out; may go back to him again, but not until I see how these calves shake out.

 

[tampamiketaylor]

Primetime straws ordered. Thanks again for your solid advice!

Regards,
Mike Taylor