Financing Cattle?? &*^^&&%$#$%)**@

[Ruark]

The deal was a cash deal. My contract does say.....not in exact words.....If payment is not made in full by the due date, all previous payments will be forfeited and the seller will regain ownership of the cattle.

I just left a message with the Ranger to see if we could pursue it as theft because that is the way I have looked at it. Don't really understand why I can't just hook on to a trailer and go pick up what is still at his place. Don't want to end up in jail and without my cattle though.

Right there the language is a little off. "Regain ownership"? That means the original buyer became the owner of the cattle when the deal was done, then you're going to "regain" ownership. In a lien situation, you ARE the owner until the property is paid for, just like the bank owns your car until you make all the payments. It should be "regain possession" or something like that. But you said those weren't the exact words, so.... let us know what the Ranger says, if you don't mind. It's an interesting situation, one we can all learn from.

 

[2barmcattle]

The deal was a cash deal. My contract does say.....not in exact words.....If payment is not made in full by the due date, all previous payments will be forfeited and the seller will regain ownership of the cattle.

I just left a message with the Ranger to see if we could pursue it as theft because that is the way I have looked at it. Don't really understand why I can't just hook on to a trailer and go pick up what is still at his place. Don't want to end up in jail and without my cattle though.

Right there the language is a little off. "Regain ownership"? That means the original buyer became the owner of the cattle when the deal was done, then you're going to "regain" ownership. In a lien situation, you ARE the owner until the property is paid for, just like the bank owns your car until you make all the payments. It should be "regain possession" or something like that. But you said those weren't the exact words, so.... let us know what the Ranger says, if you don't mind. It's an interesting situation, one we can all learn from.

Good point. Will let you all know.

Thanks again!!

 

[Bonsman]

Unfortunately, you are incorrect. A signed contract is not enough. You are an unpaid seller of goods. If the cattle are also financed through a bank, then the bank has a superior lien in the cattle. And if you take the cattle, then you could be liable to the purchasers bank for conversion. If you get law enforcement involved, then that exposes you to more potential liablility.

The contract for sale must have the specifice language in it that he gives you a lien or assignment upon the cattle you sold. Then you must file a UCC #1 financing statement to "perfect" your interest in the cattle. Once that is done, then you can do a "self-help" reposession of the cattle.

That said, if he gives you the cattle and there is no bank involved, then you "might" be okay.

Good luck!!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This is free legal advice. I have never seen so much "Dairy Queen" law in my life as what is on this thread. Too many people think they know the law because they heard it at the Dairy Queen.

If the purchaser's bank has a lien on the cattle you are out of luck. If your contract does not give you a lien on the cattle, then you are out of luck. Oklahoma did pass a new law; but it relates to checks that bounce. The new law is in response to Eastern Livestock's financial woes. This is a very simple UCC question. However, if he will give you the cattle back, then take them. Do not steal them or take them without his permission. UCC filings for the entire state of Oklahoma are in Oklahoma City--not in each of the 77 counties.

You can sue him in small claims court, get a judgment, and then try to enforce your judgment lien against the cattle. Again, if his bank has a lien on the cattle, then your judgment lien is second in line behind his bank. The best advice is to know who you are dealing with when you sell/buy cattle. That is everyones best protection. I hope he agrees to give you the cattle back. That is your best and least expensive option.

Before you insult all the well meaning individuals who actually did venture some help(you will notice that I was not one of them) I would ask you a question.

Are you an Attorney>??????????????

Yes, and cow law is one of my areas of practice.

 

[Bonsman]

More worthless, pointless, meaningless jaw-wagging from the Dairy Queen:

I doubt if the purchaser's funds came from a bank, or he wouldn't have made payment arrangements for the cattle; he would have simply obtained a cashier's check and handed it to the seller.

There may be a point there about having specific language in the contract. In a true lien relationship, the property is literally owned by the seller until it is paid for. "The livestock shall remain the property of... " That being said, they are still your cattle, and if he refuses to return them to you as per the contract terms, he may simply be guilty of theft, and the local sheriff can take care of the whole thing.

Another possible complication: since the buyer appears to be having financial difficulties, it's possible that he has SOLD the cattle. Legally that opens up a whole new can of worms. If all your ducks are in a row, you may have a legal right to go to the 3rd party and take your cattle, leaving him with a very bad day. Or maybe sue the buyer for the value of the cattle (yeah, like he could pay you...) There are all kinds of possibilities here, none of them pretty.

Again, before doing anything, I would consult an attorney. NOTE: you can do a little shopping around there, too. For example, I recently wanted legal advice about an estate property dispute. Calling around, attorneys wanted anything from $50 to $250 for an initial 15 minute consultation. I kid you not. I found one who chatted with me a few minutes for free, and told me exactly what I needed to know. Just a heads-up.

That's it from the Dairy Queen! 8)

Keep us posted.

With all due respect, this post is so wrong in so many ways. :bang: :bang: :bang:

 

[2barmcattle]

I'm just honored that everyone has offered so much help. It has helped me greatly with discussions with law enforcement and will help with discussions with attorneys. All have given me good things to consider. Thanks!!

 

[Ruark]

With all due respect, this post is so wrong in so many ways. :bang: :bang: :bang:

Hey, I heard it down at the Dairy Queen!!!

 

[Anonymous]

Bonsman..I think it would be really cool if you would help this member out where needed seeing this is your area of expertise. He may or may not need it, and I know that laws vary from state to state. But if you could get a copy of the contract and go from there pro bono....isn't that part of what this board is about...using various areas of expertise to help others......

 

[Isomade]

Bonsman..I think it would be really cool if you would help this member out where needed seeing this is your area of expertise. He may or may not need it, and I know that laws vary from state to state. But if you could get a copy of the contract and go from there pro bono....isn't that part of what this board is about...using various areas of expertise to help others......

Sorry hook, I disagree. If you were a mechanic and I had car trouble should you come and fix my car for free just because we are members of a cattle forum?

 

[Anonymous]

Well, almost anyone can fix a car or read a Chiltons, not everyone can understand legal speak.....

 

[Anonymous]

And yes, I would and do give free advice to people all the time on different boards. Some things I know a lot about.cows and law aint one of them

 

[Bonsman]

Bonsman..I think it would be really cool if you would help this member out where needed seeing this is your area of expertise. He may or may not need it, and I know that laws vary from state to state. But if you could get a copy of the contract and go from there pro bono....isn't that part of what this board is about...using various areas of expertise to help others......

Sorry hook, I disagree. If you were a mechanic and I had car trouble should you come and fix my car for free just because we are members of a cattle forum?

I really do not mind looking over his contract for him. All he needs to do is send me a PM and I will tell him where to send it. Since we are both in Oklahoma--it is not a problem. It is a very simple issue in which I have represented banks, feedyards, buyers, and unpaid sellers when I practiced in Amarillo. I have experienced it from most every perspective--except with my money!

I feel bad for anyone that does not get paid. When you trust someone you expect them to use their best efforts to make you whole in return.

Most of my pro bono work is involuntary.

 

[Anonymous]

Now that is how to step up to the plate..its not all about how you get paid, its who you help in the process..well done Bonsman!

 

[Bonsman]

With all due respect, this post is so wrong in so many ways. :bang: :bang: :bang:

Hey, I heard it down at the Dairy Queen!!!

LOL....The Dairy Queen comment is an ongoing joke I would tell back when I was doing ag lending seminars. There is so much wrong information about when title to livestock transfers from the seller to the buyer--it was just a good way to get started. I did not mean it a sarcastic manner (well maybe a little).

 

[angus9259]

Well, almost anyone can fix a car or read a Chiltons, not everyone can understand legal speak.....

and vice versa. talent is the person who can do both.

 

[Kingfisher]

Well, almost anyone can fix a car or read a Chiltons, not everyone can understand legal speak.....

pfft..............what ever.

 

[Anonymous]

Well, almost anyone can fix a car or read a Chiltons, not everyone can understand legal speak.....

pfft..............what ever.

:mrgreen: I said "almost" anyone

 

[bbirder]

I hope everyone has learned something from this thread!

 

[ga.prime]

My free advice contribution: When somebody asks for a loan or to buy on time tell them that's what banks are for.

 

[2barmcattle]

Bonsman..I think it would be really cool if you would help this member out where needed seeing this is your area of expertise. He may or may not need it, and I know that laws vary from state to state. But if you could get a copy of the contract and go from there pro bono....isn't that part of what this board is about...using various areas of expertise to help others......

Sorry hook, I disagree. If you were a mechanic and I had car trouble should you come and fix my car for free just because we are members of a cattle forum?

I really do not mind looking over his contract for him. All he needs to do is send me a PM and I will tell him where to send it. Since we are both in Oklahoma--it is not a problem. It is a very simple issue in which I have represented banks, feedyards, buyers, and unpaid sellers when I practiced in Amarillo. I have experienced it from most every perspective--except with my money!

I feel bad for anyone that does not get paid. When you trust someone you expect them to use their best efforts to make you whole in return.

Most of my pro bono work is involuntary.

VERY GENEROUS Sir!! I just PM'd you. Just some quick observations is all I would ask for.

Thanks a BUNCH!!! :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

 

[2barmcattle]

Didn't hear from the Ranger today. I did get our Ok. Dept of Agriculture Agent involved today. He is going to try to team up with the TSCRA agent on this.

If I don't hear anything tomorrow I am going to show up on this guys doorstep tomorrow with a trailer. :wave: May be a wasted trip but, I can't just let nothing happen. Not going to be a bully or try to be stupid. Just going to tell him I am here to get my cattle and gamble that he would let me have access. It does help that I am 6'3" and 230 lbs and he is around 5'6" or so. :lol2: