I run 120 black cows, I have or at least think I have bad fescue problems. Some years in the past have had to cull 20 cows per year for lack of or no milk after calving. Have interseeded clover with success, changed to high coper mineral, replaced some infected fescue with max q. Things seem to be geting better after bad drought this summer finally got much needed rain. Sence greening up of pasture the four latest cows to calve had zero milk. These cows are in very good body condition and have weaned heavy calves in past years. The cows are six years old. Can anyone offer advice? Also never have problems breading back. Pregnacy rate near 100 % and much over if twins are counted.
fescue no milk
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Red Bull Breeder
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Never had fescue to cause them to not have milk. Don't where you are most fescue problems can be helped with the right mineral.
If it is a fescue problem you need to start selecting for those that perform the best on the fescue. The experts day it can;t be done, strictly anecdotal but we've done it for 15 years and it's worked for us
Angus Cowman
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I have to agree with Dun and RBB in I have never had a problem with cows not milking on fescue
especially if they are in the body condition you say they are
if they are reacting to the fescue they usually lose BCS and are quite noticable
important thing is to feed a good mineral formulated for fescue and your area
sounds like you might have another problem
especially if they are in the body condition you say they are
if they are reacting to the fescue they usually lose BCS and are quite noticable
important thing is to feed a good mineral formulated for fescue and your area
sounds like you might have another problem
Douglas
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I would wonder if they are getting adequate/ clean water.
RD-Sam
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I'm wondering if the cows with no milk are out of the cows with low milk in the past, and even sired by bulls out of the cows with low milk? You could have bred yourself into the situation very easily. Sounds like it's time to do some serious culling and buy a couple of good bulls.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
I am going to back up on what i said a little bit. I have saw a few cows take to eating fescue heads and about dry them up, but that was a simple fix bushhog the the seed head.
I live in Virginia. The cattle are of good breading and large ( 1200 lb -1400 lb ) Have been saveing home bread heifers fifteen years. The biggest influence in the heard is 878. Most calves wean 600 lb -700 lb mothers with no milk have raised good calves in past. Mothers and sisters to cows with no milk are doing fine. Seems to hit many cows around 4th or 5th calf eventhough many cows do a good job well into there teans.
Water is good and plenty cattle never lack for grass or they get feed good hay. Evident good body condition.
In past had trouble with losing tail hair, bad feet , heat stress , not shedding ,and lack of milk.
Tried many mineral mixtures supposed to help with fescue includinsg some with tasco, used each mineral one year for test NO HELP. Finally used mineral with chelated copper. Noticed a marked difference tails did not fall off. Cattle shedded to shiny black coats. Feet grew out better, heat stress got alot better . The only problem now is cows with little or no milk at calving.
Another group of my cows on another farm is doing great. They are the same breading the only difference between the two farms is the one where the cows are doing well is poor ground.
The soil where the cows are having problems has a ph of near 7 most everywhere and test high to very high for P & K. Can high fertility soil cause problems?
Water is good and plenty cattle never lack for grass or they get feed good hay. Evident good body condition.
In past had trouble with losing tail hair, bad feet , heat stress , not shedding ,and lack of milk.
Tried many mineral mixtures supposed to help with fescue includinsg some with tasco, used each mineral one year for test NO HELP. Finally used mineral with chelated copper. Noticed a marked difference tails did not fall off. Cattle shedded to shiny black coats. Feet grew out better, heat stress got alot better . The only problem now is cows with little or no milk at calving.
Another group of my cows on another farm is doing great. They are the same breading the only difference between the two farms is the one where the cows are doing well is poor ground.
The soil where the cows are having problems has a ph of near 7 most everywhere and test high to very high for P & K. Can high fertility soil cause problems?
Lucky_P
Well-known member
Ergovaline, Ergonovine, and some of the other alkaloids produced by the 'bad' endophyte in some fescues, like 'dirty' KY-31, can cause agalactia (no milk); one of their actions is to decrease or prevent secretion of the prolactin hormone which 'primes' the udder for milk production.
Some years, growing conditions are worse than others for endophyte and toxic alkaloid production - and standing forages or hay - particularly if seedheads are a significant component - can cause problems with 'fescue foot', sloughed tailheads, and, yes, no milk.
Have a friend and former co-worker who's currently seeing numerous cows with fescue foot and sloughed tailswitches in his herd; feeding only home-grown fescue hay. I'll bet a Coke that it's high endophyte/ergovaline levels in the hay (pastures are kaput) that are causing the problem, and have recommended that he supplement with some corn, CGF, SHP, DDG etc., in order to dilute and offset the effects. Saw a presentation recently that referenced a 2007 J.An.Sci. publication on using a commercially-available yeast cell wall derivative that, as a feed supplement, looks to have some promise in offsetting the effects of endophyte alkaloids in fescue straw/hay.
Here's the article: http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/85/10/2596
It's an extreme case, but about 18 years ago, there was a producer in my area who'd gotten hold of some fescue screenings(the junk left over after KY-31 fescue seed was combined and cleaned), and was feeding them as a supplement - nutritional analysis showed a relatively high crude protein level, and they were 'cheap' (free). Or, at least, he thought they were.
Several hundred head of stocker cattle lost ears, tails, feet; herd of registered Brangus cows calved out with no udder development and calves starved to death. Ergovaline levels in the screenings was 'off the chart'. It was a tremendous train wreck, and a big lawsuit ensued.
Some years, growing conditions are worse than others for endophyte and toxic alkaloid production - and standing forages or hay - particularly if seedheads are a significant component - can cause problems with 'fescue foot', sloughed tailheads, and, yes, no milk.
Have a friend and former co-worker who's currently seeing numerous cows with fescue foot and sloughed tailswitches in his herd; feeding only home-grown fescue hay. I'll bet a Coke that it's high endophyte/ergovaline levels in the hay (pastures are kaput) that are causing the problem, and have recommended that he supplement with some corn, CGF, SHP, DDG etc., in order to dilute and offset the effects. Saw a presentation recently that referenced a 2007 J.An.Sci. publication on using a commercially-available yeast cell wall derivative that, as a feed supplement, looks to have some promise in offsetting the effects of endophyte alkaloids in fescue straw/hay.
Here's the article: http://jas.fass.org/cgi/reprint/85/10/2596
It's an extreme case, but about 18 years ago, there was a producer in my area who'd gotten hold of some fescue screenings(the junk left over after KY-31 fescue seed was combined and cleaned), and was feeding them as a supplement - nutritional analysis showed a relatively high crude protein level, and they were 'cheap' (free). Or, at least, he thought they were.
Several hundred head of stocker cattle lost ears, tails, feet; herd of registered Brangus cows calved out with no udder development and calves starved to death. Ergovaline levels in the screenings was 'off the chart'. It was a tremendous train wreck, and a big lawsuit ensued.
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
If his cows are calving now there should not be any fescue heads. Have only seen a very few cows eat enough fescue head to cause milk trouble.
Thanks for all the ideas. I read the publications on YCW in entirety, unfortunately it is far above what my uneducated mind can comperhend.
However what I could understand did sound good. I would be willing to try but don't know where to get or how to feed or how much.
No seed heads after severe drought.I have a flush of very greem mostly fescue grass 4'' tall as clover did not regenerate much this late in season.
Supplrment hay through drought has been wheat, matua-alfala, tef no fescue.
As noticed before all cattle improved greatly in all symptoms when fed chelated mineral except the little or no milk.
However what I could understand did sound good. I would be willing to try but don't know where to get or how to feed or how much.
No seed heads after severe drought.I have a flush of very greem mostly fescue grass 4'' tall as clover did not regenerate much this late in season.
Supplrment hay through drought has been wheat, matua-alfala, tef no fescue.
As noticed before all cattle improved greatly in all symptoms when fed chelated mineral except the little or no milk.
Lucky_P
Well-known member
RBB,
If someone is feeding fescue hay with the seedheads present - and it may be that growing conditions in a given year are going to result in higher alkaloid levels in seedheads AND leaves - you can get into problems.
Co-worker here was feeding only fescue hay - no grass left to graze - and was having fescue foot and cows losing tailswitches. Continued feeding without some steps to dilute/counteract the alkaloids in the hay *could* have resulted in cows calving out later with no udder development.
Cowboy, I'm not pushing their product, but Alltech markets several YCW products - not sure whether it's Mycosorb or Integral that they used in the endophyte feeding trials.
Providing a good balanced mineral mix and supplementing with appropriate grain/protein sources may provide a solution
People don't want to see or hear it, but lack of adequate, appropriate 'groceries' causes more 'disease' and loss of production in the cow-calf segment than any virus, bacterium, or parasite.
If someone is feeding fescue hay with the seedheads present - and it may be that growing conditions in a given year are going to result in higher alkaloid levels in seedheads AND leaves - you can get into problems.
Co-worker here was feeding only fescue hay - no grass left to graze - and was having fescue foot and cows losing tailswitches. Continued feeding without some steps to dilute/counteract the alkaloids in the hay *could* have resulted in cows calving out later with no udder development.
Cowboy, I'm not pushing their product, but Alltech markets several YCW products - not sure whether it's Mycosorb or Integral that they used in the endophyte feeding trials.
Providing a good balanced mineral mix and supplementing with appropriate grain/protein sources may provide a solution
People don't want to see or hear it, but lack of adequate, appropriate 'groceries' causes more 'disease' and loss of production in the cow-calf segment than any virus, bacterium, or parasite.
agmantoo
Well-known member
cowboy,
I live one state south of you. My herd is only slightly smaller than yours. For nearly 10 years I have done rotational grazing year round with no grain or feed supplement, no hay except in a major drought situation. I do feed a cheap mineral/salt supplement. My sole forage 365 days a year is fescue ky31 with clovers, mostly ladino. I even harvest and replant my own seed. I do not have the problems you mentioned with my endophyte infected fescue. I apply no commercial fertilizer but do use what chicken litter I can get from a single layer house. My cow herd is a closed herd but with outside purchased bulls. I do have a problem with the bulls maintaining condition. Seems to me that the bulls that I purchase were supplemented with grain and when the grain is absent and they are breeding frequently the weight drops. If we knew the difference between our herds, I think we would have the answer to your question.
I live one state south of you. My herd is only slightly smaller than yours. For nearly 10 years I have done rotational grazing year round with no grain or feed supplement, no hay except in a major drought situation. I do feed a cheap mineral/salt supplement. My sole forage 365 days a year is fescue ky31 with clovers, mostly ladino. I even harvest and replant my own seed. I do not have the problems you mentioned with my endophyte infected fescue. I apply no commercial fertilizer but do use what chicken litter I can get from a single layer house. My cow herd is a closed herd but with outside purchased bulls. I do have a problem with the bulls maintaining condition. Seems to me that the bulls that I purchase were supplemented with grain and when the grain is absent and they are breeding frequently the weight drops. If we knew the difference between our herds, I think we would have the answer to your question.
kickinbull
Well-known member
cowboy,
We have been told by natives here in KY that this time of the year the cows will eat acorns.(akerns) And it will dry them up big time! We don't have many oaks, so I don't know.
We have been told by natives here in KY that this time of the year the cows will eat acorns.(akerns) And it will dry them up big time! We don't have many oaks, so I don't know.
Another thought some people think my problem is not fescue. Including one vet who has seen this problem before many years ago. But can't remember the cause and since the people who had the problem are all departed this world can't get far with this.
Studied internet, read many papers, found that to much selenium could cause these problems, split hooves, tails fall off, no milk, swollen painful joints ( usually ankle) . Looked at mineral that had been feed for many years it contained an extreme amount selenium. Also looked at USDA map of minerals found my county to be the next to the highest in the state. The highest being neighboring county, which I am only 10 miles from.
Consulted vet you would have thought I was wearing a clown suit. It would be silly to test the cattle for that. We are selenium deficient that's a western thing. You have been told you have a fescue problem.
Tested them anyway. Pulled blood from 12 cows and 6 calves , tested for copper and selenium. Results showed normal copper and border line deficient selenium opposite of what I expected. Also tested hay those results were slightly low copper and slightly high selenium.
Cattle were tested in very early spring after being on hay all winter. Pasture seems to be causing the problem should I be testing in summer? Have herd these tests may not show true picture.
Could all that selenium be getting recycled through manure in pastures? Any ideas?
Studied internet, read many papers, found that to much selenium could cause these problems, split hooves, tails fall off, no milk, swollen painful joints ( usually ankle) . Looked at mineral that had been feed for many years it contained an extreme amount selenium. Also looked at USDA map of minerals found my county to be the next to the highest in the state. The highest being neighboring county, which I am only 10 miles from.
Consulted vet you would have thought I was wearing a clown suit. It would be silly to test the cattle for that. We are selenium deficient that's a western thing. You have been told you have a fescue problem.
Tested them anyway. Pulled blood from 12 cows and 6 calves , tested for copper and selenium. Results showed normal copper and border line deficient selenium opposite of what I expected. Also tested hay those results were slightly low copper and slightly high selenium.
Cattle were tested in very early spring after being on hay all winter. Pasture seems to be causing the problem should I be testing in summer? Have herd these tests may not show true picture.
Could all that selenium be getting recycled through manure in pastures? Any ideas?
Kickinbull I agree acorns are a real problem and cows love them, I in past years have lost calves to acorns, bloody scours and urine. But the cows having problems now are not exposed to acorns.
Agmantoo I think I can help with your bull problem. Sounds like your buying young bulls, 18 months or so. Usually these bulls have been fed to the hilt as no one could sell a scrubby one. When you turn out these bulls with cows their nutrition is much less even more important they don't know how to bread cows. When a cow starts to come in they follow night and day trying to mount her hundreds of times where as a senior bull will be there when the time is right, bread the cow and is back eating in two seconds.
One thing you might try is only put the young bull out a week or two. Then get him up and feed him a good while. Keep older bull to bread most cows. Another way would be to only let the young bull have 8-10 cows his first season and give supplemental feed. Young bulls can miss many cows and let you down badly.Also I have found putting several young bulls with cows is no help.To much energy spent fighting ang following same cow when multipal cows are in heat.
One difference in our farms is I have to feed all winter. Also my ph and fertility is very high. Where is yours? Could this cause me problems?
Agmantoo I think I can help with your bull problem. Sounds like your buying young bulls, 18 months or so. Usually these bulls have been fed to the hilt as no one could sell a scrubby one. When you turn out these bulls with cows their nutrition is much less even more important they don't know how to bread cows. When a cow starts to come in they follow night and day trying to mount her hundreds of times where as a senior bull will be there when the time is right, bread the cow and is back eating in two seconds.
One thing you might try is only put the young bull out a week or two. Then get him up and feed him a good while. Keep older bull to bread most cows. Another way would be to only let the young bull have 8-10 cows his first season and give supplemental feed. Young bulls can miss many cows and let you down badly.Also I have found putting several young bulls with cows is no help.To much energy spent fighting ang following same cow when multipal cows are in heat.
One difference in our farms is I have to feed all winter. Also my ph and fertility is very high. Where is yours? Could this cause me problems?
agmantoo
Well-known member
Cowboy
Thanks for the info on the bulls. I ceased buying young bulls more than 5 years ago. Since then I buy mature bulls but still have a problem with them loosing condition. I calve year round. On average my primary bull would need to service about 8 cows per month. Do you think this is too much work for a mature bull in the prime of its life?
As for your milk problem. I seriously doubt that it is the fescue. Articles I have read state that there are 35 million acres of fescue growing in the USA. Most of this acreage is being grazed. Common reasoning would bring one to conclude that the problem would be more widespread if fescue caused the problem.
My pastures are rather fertile but the PH is a little low. I hired a private service to do a GPS study on the place for nutrient requirements 2 years ago. Their report showed a few areas that need a little lime but no fertilizer. The lime requirement was so minimal that they suggested to hold off.
I do feed a cheap mineral supplement now. The only unusual observation that I have is that my cattle will eat red dirt. They also ate red dirt when I fed a much higher priced supplement. My black hided animals have always exhibited some reddish color on their backs indicating selenium deficiency. There is 40 plus acres containing some large mature oaks and I permit the cattle to eat the acorns. My neighbors also permit their cattle to eat acorns with no observed problems.
Do you have any neighbors with similar animals to yours that graze fescue? If so, do they also have a milk problem?
PS...is there a chance these cattle received an ear implant as heifers?
Thanks for the info on the bulls. I ceased buying young bulls more than 5 years ago. Since then I buy mature bulls but still have a problem with them loosing condition. I calve year round. On average my primary bull would need to service about 8 cows per month. Do you think this is too much work for a mature bull in the prime of its life?
As for your milk problem. I seriously doubt that it is the fescue. Articles I have read state that there are 35 million acres of fescue growing in the USA. Most of this acreage is being grazed. Common reasoning would bring one to conclude that the problem would be more widespread if fescue caused the problem.
My pastures are rather fertile but the PH is a little low. I hired a private service to do a GPS study on the place for nutrient requirements 2 years ago. Their report showed a few areas that need a little lime but no fertilizer. The lime requirement was so minimal that they suggested to hold off.
I do feed a cheap mineral supplement now. The only unusual observation that I have is that my cattle will eat red dirt. They also ate red dirt when I fed a much higher priced supplement. My black hided animals have always exhibited some reddish color on their backs indicating selenium deficiency. There is 40 plus acres containing some large mature oaks and I permit the cattle to eat the acorns. My neighbors also permit their cattle to eat acorns with no observed problems.
Do you have any neighbors with similar animals to yours that graze fescue? If so, do they also have a milk problem?
PS...is there a chance these cattle received an ear implant as heifers?
