Feltons legend 242

[Alan]

I did't want to put my other post off track, some good thoughts on REA and IMF.

But for Hill Creek or anyone else, what is it about 242 you don't like?

Thanks,
Alan

 

[LFF]

242 is a good bull when mated to the proper heifers.

As for things that I don't like it is mainly the backfat.
His physical appearance does not appeal to me either , but I,m more concern with profitablity than appearance.

I have not used him because I decided to try Ellis Farms P230 Frank bull and the genetics are too similar which would conflict with using P230 in my over all plan.

If P230 does not preform to my expections I will strongly considering useing 242.

Hope others give their opinions , however if 242 fits your program I would use him.

 

[Herefords.US]

what is it about 242 you don't like?

242 traces back to Titan 23D in six generations on his sire's dam's side.

George

 

[LFF]

what is it about 242 you don't like?

242 traces back to Titan 23D in six generations on his sire's dam's side.

George

He is correct. Some folks think that a weasel was in the hen house. I suppect that many breeds have weasels , but the DNA requirments for AI use should elimate that problem.

 

[Herefords.US]

He is correct. Some folks think that a weasel was in the hen house. I suppect that many breeds have weasels , but the DNA requirments for AI use should elimate that problem.

Here is a picture that you don't see too often anymore in Hereford circles. I scanned it from an ad in the 1981 American Hereford Journal Herd Bull Edition.

George

 

[oakcreekfarms]

I like him, but I like one of his sons better. SHF progress p20, is a real heifer bull, and has kept the high rea and IMF numbers. I just like him better because of the remitall addition in the pedigree.

 

[SEC]

THere's a nice looking Simmental bull there!

 

[Herefords.US]

THere's a nice looking Simmental bull there!

Sorry! That's 100% pure registered Hereford! The AHA doesn't allow any crossbreds to be registered in the association. (tongue planted firmly in cheek)

George

 

[Hill Creek Farm]

Titan 23D, I thought I had heard that he was part Simmy, am I wrong? I want to say that after seeing a lot of 242 daughters, there is only one I have even liked before and she is owned by a good friend of my here in Virginia. Charlie Boyd stated that this was the best Legend daugther he has ever sold in hsi 2004 Hereford sale. Give her a look for yourself; Boyd Karen 3007. Dunrovin Farm flushed her to P606 and also to DR World Class 517 10H. What a fabulous cow she ahs made. Now, this is the only Legend I like that I have ever send before. What do you all think of her?

 

[KNERSIE]

I'm curiuos to know what percentage simmental blood was claimed to be in Titan?

 

[Herefords.US]

I'm curiuos to know what percentage simmental blood was claimed to be in Titan?

The rumors at the time stated 25 or 50%.

He was imported from Canada with a group of bulls, if memory serves me correctly.

The representative from the AHA that investigated 23D was a close friend to a good friend of mine. He told my friend that he didn't believe there was any WILLFUL misconduct on the part of any of the people involved with 23D. At worst, it was an HONEST mistake.

Ultimately, the blood type tests couldn't conclusively prove or disprove 23D's lineage. Few relatives available to test. DNA tests hadn't yet been used at the time.

Under the threat of lawsuits, the registration was allowed to stand.

George

 

[KNERSIE]

How about evaluating Legend phenotypically?

The first thing that springs to mind is that I would like to see the muscling going down lower on the gaskins, the rest looks OK to me from what I can judge from the photo from Reed Enterprizes website. Doc what do you think?

Tried to post the photo, but didn't succeed, can anybody help?

[/img]

 

[Alan]

I happy to be getting as complete of a story on the Titan 23D bull as I have ever heard. Thank you George. What I'm wondering is Feltons Legend 242 is 1/64, or 1.6% Titan 23D. If 23D was 50% Limi then that makes 242 about 0.8% Limi. When is the Limi blood delute enough?

Alan

 

[Herefords.US]

For the record, I'm not really the "breed purist" that some are. A couple of prominent Hereford breeders advised me, when I was getting back into the Hereford business in 2002, to stay away from any cattle that had Titan 23D blood in them, and more specifically Tex Prime Time breeding, because of the diluter gene and the fact that there are breeders that ARE breed purists. And the 23D breeding in a herd will taint that breeder's reputation in these breed purist's eyes.

I've tried to follow that advice.

I try to trace the pedigree of any animal that I buy back to 1973 to avoid any 23D influence.

I messed up once by buying a heifer at a consignment sale that I hadn't checked the pedigree beforehand. She traced back to 23D in 7 generations. She's a good cow but I have reservations about keeping any progeny.

A LOT of registered cattle in the Hereford breed trace back to 23D. Assuming the rumor is true, Feltons Legend 242 would still be 99%+ Hereford, if my math is correct. That's well within the parameters of many breed associations to qualify as being "purebred".

One of the prominent Hereford breeders, whose advice I sought, had this to say in reference to my possibly buying semen in a bull that traced back to 23D:

"I am very prejudiced in regard to breed purity. I equate breed purity with personal integrity. We must maintain it without any question marks. Registered Hereford cattle are the purest beef breed available today and we need to maintain this purity. Don't use that semen on your registered cows.

People have to make up their own mind what is important. To me, it is one of those hurdles that I could easily go around and avoid, since I was starting out. To those that have these genetics already inbedded in their herd, and especially in their best cows, their decision is not nearly as easy to make.

George

 

[Herefords.US]

How about evaluating Legend phenotypically?

The first thing that springs to mind is that I would like to see the muscling going down lower on the gaskins, the rest looks OK to me from what I can judge from the photo from Reed Enterprizes website. Doc what do you think?

Tried to post the photo, but didn't succeed, can anybody help?

[/img]

 

[Alan]

How about evaluating Legend phenotypically?

The first thing that springs to mind is that I would like to see the muscling going down lower on the gaskins, the rest looks OK to me from what I can judge from the photo from Reed Enterprizes website. Doc what do you think?

Tried to post the photo, but didn't succeed, can anybody help?

[/img]

I would love to hear the thoughts on this bulls phenotype, but remember in the very least, with the 23D influence, this bull is 99.2% Hereford, making offspring from hereford cows 99.6%.

Alan

 

[Badlands]

Titan's dam was rumored to have been produced by a Simmental bull making him a rumored 3/4 Hereford.

I think the first imports hit CA in 67, and she was born in 69.

This would have made her concieved in '68. So, either one of the first fullblood imported Simmental sires escaped quaratine and bred her dam, or someone put Simmental semen into her dam.

Then again, maybe he isn't part Simmental at all.

Badlands

 

[Herefords.US]

I would love to hear the thoughts on this bulls phenotype, but remember in the very least, with the 23D influence, this bull is 99.2% Hereford, making offspring from hereford cows 99.6%.

Alan

Overall, I like the bull phenotypically, as well as his EPDs. I would like to see a little more depth of rear quarter from the side.

George

 

[LFF]

Titan's dam was rumored to have been produced by a Simmental bull making him a rumored 3/4 Hereford.

I think the first imports hit CA in 67, and she was born in 69.

This would have made her concieved in '68. So, either one of the first fullblood imported Simmental sires escaped quaratine and bred her dam, or someone put Simmental semen into her dam.

Then again, maybe he isn't part Simmental at all.

Badlands

AHHH!!! A devils advocate , can you supply more information on this thought process ?

Any of Feltons 774 bulls off spring is going to have 23D and while there was and still is some reservations about 23D many if not most top preforming and well know breeders are using 774 or his sons.

I thought long and hard about 774's off spring and finally decided to bit the bullet and use his sons on at least one line of my cows. I do and will continue to elimate using any sires that are confirmed diluters. There are sires that carry diluter genes in the hereford breed that do not trace back to 23D.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

How about evaluating Legend phenotypically?

The first thing that springs to mind is that I would like to see the muscling going down lower on the gaskins, the rest looks OK to me from what I can judge from the photo from Reed Enterprizes website. Doc what do you think?

Tried to post the photo, but didn't succeed, can anybody help?

[/img]

Hereford.US - I agree with your suggestion that he be evaluated phenotypically! It seems to me that the majority of the comments in relationship to judging certain animals (Bulls or Cows) on the Forum specifies only one or two particular features - "Don't like his daughters" - or - "Not enough milk" - or - "Too much milk" - or - "Frame too small" and so on. The ONE SINGLE problem that I detect with Evaluations of Bulls is: they are NOT analysed in total. Phenotype is only part of the answer. Genetype is only another part of the answer. They are probably the two most important parts in determining what a bull IS -but when it comes down to putting the knock on a bull because of what his progeny LOOKS like, or how his progeny PERFORMS, most breeders seem to forget that a COW is part of that bull's progeny also - and HER phenotype and Genotype has a great deal to do with how the calve's will look and perform!

The PICTURE of this bull is just that - a PICTURE! But it is the only image that we have, so we have to go with itl You are right, Hereford.US, and I agree with you - he is a fine bull phenotypically, with the exception of his lower hindquarters not extending down to his gaskins enough. It is difficult to determine from this picture, but I would say that he is probably a little sickle-hocked and light-boned. Observe the angle of his left rear leg and foot position. He stands a little close at the hocks (in this picture!) But the "Gaskin" weakness is the main problem. I will admit that this is nit-picking, but he is what he is. But to determine whether or not he should be used to establish the TYPE of cattle a breeder will be using by keeping replacements for several seasons takes a lot more consideration of characteristics than what the bull alone can bring to the program. But we have discussed this situation in the past, and the solid facts are still the same: Look at the bull's mamma and the cows to which he will be mated before saying he doesn't have any brown around his eyes! That is true, but a small factor with not too high a priority in the final analysis.

DOC HARRIS