Federal ID

[Scotty]

Start a new post for what I hear. I went to a meating(free meal) put on by my local extention service. I got the drift that if a program like the one they talk of goes in the only animal that will be tagged is the ones bought and sold at a sale. Any sale. Seed stock or local sale barn. They said if you have one born on your place and she lives 50 years and dies on your place no tag needed. This applies to everyone. 5 head or 5000 you sell cattle you tag.


Scotty

 

[Oldtimer]

Start a new post for what I hear. I went to a meating(free meal) put on by my local extention service. I got the drift that if a program like the one they talk of goes in the only animal that will be tagged is the ones bought and sold at a sale. Any sale. Seed stock or local sale barn. They said if you have one born on your place and she lives 50 years and dies on your place no tag needed. This applies to everyone. 5 head or 5000 you sell cattle you tag.


Scotty

Scotty- At your meeting did they discuss who in your area would maintain the data base on transfers and who would do the area or ownership transfers to keep a traceback trail? The tagging part is the easy and cheap part- the infrastructure to record all these transfers is going to be the question.....Will the change of ownerships be done by vets or brand inspectors-- or by a newly created state or federal position? Will the state maintain the data base?-- or will it be the feds? Or will it be a private company that contracts to the state or feds? Thats where the cost and work will come in...................

 

[Scotty]

The cost involved for the tagging would be the same as you tagging your cattle. Allflex and such companies prices vary. One of the people that spoke and had the most to offer was a person from a data collection company. The cost of you tag and when you sell a transfer cost covers their part. People like the owners of the sale barn spoke up and said thye would tag and do everything for you for a fee. Thye did not sya how much but some options were a higher % comission or a flat fee. Best I can remeber this would be ran by the USDA as it is to be going on in every state. People like brand inspectors and sale barn owners are going to have to watch for untagged cattle. Have a computer near or at the tagging site. Be similar to all cattle in Texas being tested for Bangs. Probly be a wait time befor a problem is dicovered. Another thing I hear talk of is the sale barns thinking of puting a cut off time for cattle. A sale barn I have benn using is Jordans in San Saba. They are running a trial to see if this is implementable. For the last few yeears they are hold premium weaned calf sales. VAC 45 program your calves and electronic tag them. Call for tags when you want to start vacinating. When you are complete they call you back and tell you when they want you to bring your cattle. They weigh each one and sort acording to sex, weight, color, and if thye are implanted or not. I have noticed 20 - 30 $ per CWT.



Scotty

 

[twp]

Scotty, (I work for Arkansas Cattlemens)I have gone to meetings an USDA does not want the responsibility for the program. They are going to tell the states how to run it. It will most likely fall under the Department of AG. Our state and Rode Island do not have one so it will fall under us and the State Livestock and Poultry Commisson. The USDA is issue grants for studies on a trial basis. We have talked with Undersecratary Hawks and what we are setting up right now is a volentary Primise plan. We feel the same as to that the cattle should not be taged untill it enters commerce. (sale barn) It is not exact on who will run it but from what we understand is that it will be ran from state to state with it being looked over by USDA. The reason for that is, what works for Arkansas will not work in Montana or New Mexico.

 

[txag]

We feel the same as to that the cattle should not be taged untill it enters commerce. (sale barn)

i find this interesting considering all the cattle-trading that goes on in Texas. there are many people who trade cattle for a living & they don't always rely on the salebarns for their sources. they'll go around & pick up a uniform set of weaned heifers & hold them 'til they're bred & then resell them as bred females. who knows how many times these can change hands before they enter a sale ring. a 14-yr old cow could be entering the barn for the first time on her way to slaughter & have had many homes before getting there and would be almost impossible to trace.

 

[twp]

texag, It will police itself. If you buy a set of hefiers from me and don't fill out any paperwork then you just assumed all resposibility if they find a hot cow and trace it back to you. Cause if you tell them you got them from me I am just going to say I have never seen them before, and then who are they going to qauritine, not me cause you have now proof they came fom me.

 

[txag]

texag, It will police itself. If you buy a set of hefiers from me and don't fill out any paperwork then you just assumed all resposibility if they find a hot cow and trace it back to you. Cause if you tell them you got them from me I am just going to say I have never seen them before, and then who are they going to qauritine, not me cause you have now proof they came fom me.

then wouldn't it be easier to tag when they leave the premise of origin so you have some real identifier? for example: trader A buys 10 black heifers from me. they're all tagged w/green tags numbered 1-10. he also buys 10 heifers from someone three counties away. they're all tagged 1500-1510. we exchange the paperwork but then he changes all the tags so they're numbered 1-20 with yellow tags. they're all black & he knows 10 came from me & 10 from someone else but which are which he no longer knows. he then sells these as a bigger uniform group of open heifers to Trader B who adds them to his group of 50 head of black open heifers of the same age. he once again changes their tags so they correspond to the rest of his, holds them & breeds them & sells them as breds. Trader C buys them as breds & same scenario with tags & then sells them as pairs. Can they really be traced back even with paperwork? Or........say they're not changing tags to have consecutive numbers but half of them lose their tags. they're all black brangus-type females that Mr Trader sees every two weeks. you think he's going to get them all tagged back right?

so....back to my original question: why not tag when leaving origin premise?

keep in mind i'm not arguing i.d. (easy enough for me to comply), i'm just questioning the logic behind only tagging when entering the sale barn.

 

[twp]

The number that you or I give the cow will stay with it till it dies. I understand your thinking and I agree, the thing is thier are people out thier that have 20 head that do not want to tag thier cattle. Most people will probably go ahead and tag them. I feel that their will be a day that the barn buyers, backgrounders will only buy tagged cattle or at least want to know were they came from before they go through the ring. I feel that this will also improve the quality of cattle all over the US. I know ranchers right now that buyers know the cattle when they come through the barn, and have seen the price jump from 5 to 10 cents for thier cattle. Is the right? No, or at least I don't think, but they know that the cattle are Precondtioned and it seems thats what the buyers want.

 

[Oldtimer]

texag, It will police itself. If you buy a set of hefiers from me and don't fill out any paperwork then you just assumed all resposibility if they find a hot cow and trace it back to you. Cause if you tell them you got them from me I am just going to say I have never seen them before, and then who are they going to qauritine, not me cause you have now proof they came fom me.

twp- I have a hard time believing that that will work- especially if USDA wants to put in all the phases of proposed M-ID which includes change of pasture ID ( area or county) -- They will need to have each state pass legislation and build an infrastructure-- There has to be a central database somewhere or at least databases in each state to record all this movement..Especially the interstate transport which in many states already require veterinary health inspections--

Some states already have strong rules and laws in place- but for US health safety its worthless to the US cattle herd unless the entire US cattle herd is under the same enforcement-- right now in Montana with the brand laws we can track most cattle- (Mandatory change of ownership and change of county inspections) It would really p*ss me off if someone in Arkansas or Florida or Delaware or wherever closed our entire country down because they couldn't trace where 1 old pet cow had been........ Be like the joke the beef checkoff has became-- some states still don't have beef boards-- many areas don't pay any as long as they don't sell thru the salesbarns......At least they need an interstate law to make sure that when they quarantine, its not the whole country- Just Arkansas or wherever it came out of.....

Also I happen to be one of those that gets the extra 10+ cents a pound and have for years- because the buyers know my cattle, know the genetics, know that when I tell them I gave them the shots, they were- know the shots were given under BQA specs.- know that I have records that go back for over 50 years--know they haven't ate chicken sh*t off some poultry farm, dog food, or any banned feedstuffs- and they have been successful with the cattle in the past.... This year I went one step further and signed affidavits of birth period for age--

I'm one that has no problem with M-ID, any type of traceback, and believe that this country needs a M-COOL put into affect so that people can identify if they are eating US beef or imports from the more than 30 countries we're bringing beef in from and co-mingling..........My only fear with M-ID is to make it affordable to the cattleman..........

 

[Craig-TX]

Maybe I’m missing something but it seems like the whole disease thing could be solved if a fast, accurate and inexpensive test could be developed and used on 100% of commercial slaughter animals. Each and every positive animal would be condemned on the spot and life would go on. Of course, the key word in the first sentence was if. It’s the longest word in the English language.

Craig-TX

 

[Frankie]

Maybe I’m missing something but it seems like the whole disease thing could be solved if a fast, accurate and inexpensive test could be developed and used on 100% of commercial slaughter animals. Each and every positive animal would be condemned on the spot and life would go on. Of course, the key word in the first sentence was if. It’s the longest word in the English language.

Craig-TX

Are you speaking of a fast, accurate BSE test? That only identifies one animal; it doesn't identify a potential herd of BSE animals. And what about foot & mouth? We would be in a pickle if we had a cow with foot and mouth disease show up in a feedlot with no way to trace where it came from. It would have infected cattle from it's source, through the sale barns, into possibly another herd, all the way to the feedlot and we wouldn't have any idea where to look for problems until hundreds of other cows showed up sick. Do you remember the outbreak in England a few years ago? That was terrible. There's more at stake here than just BSE. IMO, it's not a food safety issue; it's a herd health issue.

 

[Scotty]

The man that I was drawing my knowledge said USDA, but if the states want to run it that would, in my opinion, be better. The sale at Jordans that I was refering seems to be going well. The omly thing about iot that hasn't been tried is on cows. The tags are in calves bound for the feed lot or greener pastures . I think that it could work but alot of questions still remain. I don' know all the questions that for others too. But I have seen cattle tracked that had bangs and they went through three sale barns befor they were found so what ever they do in my opinion is going to have to be sped up.

Scotty

 

[Craig-TX]

Maybe I’m missing something but it seems like the whole disease thing could be solved if a fast, accurate and inexpensive test could be developed and used on 100% of commercial slaughter animals. Each and every positive animal would be condemned on the spot and life would go on. Of course, the key word in the first sentence was if. It’s the longest word in the English language.

Craig-TX

Are you speaking of a fast, accurate BSE test? That only identifies one animal; it doesn't identify a potential herd of BSE animals. And what about foot & mouth? We would be in a pickle if we had a cow with foot and mouth disease show up in a feedlot with no way to trace where it came from. It would have infected cattle from it's source, through the sale barns, into possibly another herd, all the way to the feedlot and we wouldn't have any idea where to look for problems until hundreds of other cows showed up sick. Do you remember the outbreak in England a few years ago? That was terrible. There's more at stake here than just BSE. IMO, it's not a food safety issue; it's a herd health issue.

100% testing would eliminate a single animal or an entire herd, whatever the case might be. I was referring to BSE. Throwing hoof and mouth into the mix changes everything. But hoof and mouth has never been a big enough problem to justify the type of nationwide program that would track every animal from birth to slaughter. All kinds of nightmare scenarios could be thought up to justify a program. But that’s taking the discussion into the emotional what-if arena. From a pragmatic standpoint the justification does not exist IMO.

Craig-TX

 

[hillbilly]

Why not require a "bangs type" tag in all cattle over 6 months old?

I've got a couple of cows over 10 years old that still have thier calf hood
tag in their ear.

I once took a group of bought yearling heifers to the vet to be worked.
He looked at their bangs tag and told me "these two are from Texas, that one is from Arkansas and those are from Oaklahoma."

Funny the ol'boy I bought them from said he raised them....
Even offered to let me look at their moma's


Hillbilly

 

[Craig-TX]

You nailed it. The Achilles heel of the whole concept is that it depends on 100% integrity (not to mention 100% accuracy) of 100% of owners throughout the lives of 100% of all the animals. That’s a pipe dream plain and simple, on top of the whole thing being unnecessary and unjustified.

Craig-TX

 

[txag]

You nailed it. The Achilles heel of the whole concept is that it depends on 100% integrity (not to mention 100% accuracy) of 100% of owners throughout the lives of 100% of all the animals. That’s a pipe dream plain and simple, on top of the whole thing being unnecessary and unjustified.

Craig-TX

i support the idea of m.i.d., but i'm still unsure of the reality of implementation. the "it will police itself" doesn't satisfy me. sounds similar to gun control.....only those willing to comply will do so. everyone else will continue to do as before & just hope they don't get caught.

 

[Cattle Rack Rancher]

In Canada, we have mandatory ID and it works, kind of. Before your cattle leave the yard they must be tagged unless they are being delivered to a tagging facility. If you get caught with them on a piece of land or hauling them to a piece of land off your home property, the fine is $1000. Chances of that happening are really low. However, my brother tried hauling one into the local slaughterhouse without a tag and the inspector tuned him up pretty good. Cattle cannot go through the sale ring without a tag and if the tag falls out, you better hope you find it because if there is a problem with that cow, it will fall on your shoulders. If you need to sell that untagged cow, you need to supply another tag. We started with bar code tags which were good because they were just like a normal visual tag with a bar code on it. Now, they are moving to electronic ear tags so you will need to buy a visual tag separately as well as your electronic ear tags.

 

[twp]

I am not tryin to step on anyones toes, I am just sharing the infomation that I know on. Oldtimer, on the tracing back, If you sold me cattle from your state most likely you have tagged them. But lets say you didn't or didn't want to pay for it up front. There would be no way in this world that I would buy cattle from you with out them being tagged. I would not want the responsability of it. If those cattle came from Montana (I just got back from elk hunting in Twin Bridges) and had hoof and mouth, (a comunical disease) and found it here, THEY WILL SHUT DOWN COMMERCE FROM HERE TO THIER. It is their protacall, they will eventually release everything over time but it will happen. The ID is for tracking purposes only, farmers want the govenment out of thier lives. H*ll I do to, but guess what it isn't going to happen and if you think that they can't find out were you live what you do or anything else about you then you are wrong. If I had your real name within 5 min I could find out more about you then I should, That information is right here on the internet. So we can either let them know how we feel or just let it ride. Most farmers in AR will most likely tag thier cattle. But it only makes logical sense, that if that pet cow is born on your farm, died on your farm then why spend the money to tag it. If it goes to the sale then it will be tagged at the barn. The barn dosen't want shut down so why would they just say that, Thats just Mr. Farmers old pet cow and it doesnt't need to be tagged, It come up hot and guess what, The barn gets shut down, every body who came through that gate that day gets shut down and so on. ID has nothing to do with BSE, it just set things into motion.

 

[twp]

Oldtimer, I think that I misrepresnted myself when I talked about the calves getting 5 to 10 cents more. I am currently doing that myself. Its just getting the buyers to relize it. I have talked them before a sale and it seems that my cattle did not do any better than average. Thats why i said what I did. The next round of calves that I sell will be in a precon sale. I have records two and am about to go to work for a company who's lively hood depends on ranchers working their cattle. Its just that we (ACA) were trying to get people to precon their calves and the buyers at that time were not giving anymore than average. Now that we have developed a Precon Sale, the effort is pushing that way. I applaud you for what you are doing, I am doing it two, I am just having to go a different way around it. Sorry for the mix up.

 

[Texan]

i support the idea of m.i.d., but i'm still unsure of the reality of implementation. the "it will police itself" doesn't satisfy me. sounds similar to gun control.....only those willing to comply will do so. everyone else will continue to do as before & just hope they don't get caught.

I agree completely, txag. In fact, there's really no use to beat around the bush about it----the "police itself" concept is ridiculous, to put it more bluntly. I think Oldtimer is correct. This will have to have Federal oversight to ever work. The States can handle the premise ID and recordkeeping, but we have to have a set of rules at the Federal level. Something similar to the Code of Federal Regulations that was used in Brucellosis control. States do most of the work, but Federal law prevails. That way, the guy in East Texas with 5 cows will have the same rules as the guy in Montana with 600. The kid going to a show in Texas will have the same rules as the stocker operator in Nebraska or the cattle trader in Missouri. Only way it will ever work.