F1 Bulls (again)

[VanC]

Another thread got me to thinking about something I've wondered about before, but never got around to asking about.

Most agree that a uniform F1 cowherd, using two compatible breeds, is the way to go for the commercial producer. Most research shows that crossbred cows are better in many ways than purebred cows.

Now the question. Why wouldn't this be true of F1 bulls? Why wouldn't the same advantages of crossbred cows apply to crossbred bulls? Fertility, longevity, weaning weights, etc.

I'm asking because I've seen many on these boards say that you get more uniform calves from a purebred bull, which I can understand. But if crossbred bulls are so unpredictable, why isn't the same said about crossbred cows?

 

[dun]

A big share of the reason the calves from an F1 cow are better(whatever that is) is because of maternal heterosis. Bulls have a real hard time providing that.
An F1 lets say Hereford Simmenthal bull bred to a F1 Angus (your choice here other then Simmenthal or Hereford) Would in theory work very well. But with a hodgepodge cow herd you need to have at least one constant, i.e. a pure bred bull.

 

[novatech]

Some people use F1 bulls. I have seen semen being sold from them. I would assume you would get the same amount of heterosis. I do not understand why the calves would not be uniform. They should be as uniform as the reverse. Under the assumption you are useing straight bred cows breeding to the F1 bull.

 

[Brandonm2]

Some people use F1 bulls. I have seen semen being sold from them. I would assume you would get the same amount of heterosis. I do not understand why the calves would not be uniform. They should be as uniform as the reverse. Under the assumption you are useing straight bred cows breeding to the F1 bull.

Very true about the uniformity, but the big benefit of crossbreeding IS the additional fertility and longevity of the crossbred female. Using straightbred females loses that advantage and the crossbred sire loses the uniformity of a purebred calf crop.

 

[novatech]

Some people use F1 bulls. I have seen semen being sold from them. I would assume you would get the same amount of heterosis. I do not understand why the calves would not be uniform. They should be as uniform as the reverse. Under the assumption you are useing straight bred cows breeding to the F1 bull.

Very true about the uniformity, but the big benefit of crossbreeding IS the additional fertility and longevity of the crossbred female. Using straight bred females loses that advantage and the crossbred sire loses the uniformity of a purebred calf crop.

I agree about the F1 female.
I do not understand why there would not be uniformity Using an F1 bull on straight bred cows. On crossbred cows I would totally agree.

 

[Brandonm2]

Some people use F1 bulls. I have seen semen being sold from them. I would assume you would get the same amount of heterosis. I do not understand why the calves would not be uniform. They should be as uniform as the reverse. Under the assumption you are useing straight bred cows breeding to the F1 bull.

Very true about the uniformity, but the big benefit of crossbreeding IS the additional fertility and longevity of the crossbred female. Using straight bred females loses that advantage and the crossbred sire loses the uniformity of a purebred calf crop.

I agree about the F1 female.
I do not understand why there would not be uniformity Using an F1 bull on straight bred cows. On crossbred cows I would totally agree.

I did not explain myself well there. IF you have a purebred herd of cows, it would make more sense to me to either breed them straight to produce straightbred females and bulls or breed them to a pure sire of another breed too produce F1 females. If you have a Hereford cow herd for example breeding them too an Angus too produce F1 baldies or to a Brahman too produce F1 tigers is going to produce a much more uniform calf crop than if you bred those cows to an F1 sire like a black baldie.

 

[smnherf]

FWIW my theory is having the heterosis in your calf crop and in your cowherd is a lot more profitable than having the heterosis in your bull.

I am not totally against using a x bred bull, but the theory of crossbreeding made easy doesn't apply at all to them. If your using a x bred bull who has 1 parent that is the same breed as your cowherd, you are not gaining from using the crossbred bull from a heterosis aspect.

Brian

 

[novatech]

FWIW my theory is having the heterosis in your calf crop and in your cowherd is a lot more profitable than having the heterosis in your bull.

I am not totally against using a x bred bull, but the theory of crossbreeding made easy doesn't apply at all to them. If your using a x bred bull who has 1 parent that is the same breed as your cowherd, you are not gaining from using the crossbred bull from a heterosis aspect.

Brian

We seem to be going in circles here. Maybe just in my head.
I agree with brandon 2, as this is what I did. But I sold the F1's (braford) to cow calf operators that would go back with a contental or angus bulls. I agree that there would be less heterosis but there is still a gain. There would be even less gain in heterosis going back with a herford, but there is still some.
If I took an F1 (braford) bull and put it on a straight bred herd
of angus I could obtain the same amount of heterosis as the three way cross using F1 females (braford) and the straight bred angus bull or contental bull. I understand that the F1 females have an advantage. I am talking of heterosis only.

Just a side note. Breeding brahman to herford does not garantee a tigerstripe. 50% of the time I got red baldies.

 

[andybob]

The pig industry has been using F1 boars in controlled breeding programs for about 30 years. A typical program would have an F1 Landrace/Duroc damline cross bred to a Large White/Hampshire terminal line cross, resulting in optimal performance both in the F1 damline and the terminal generation.
I know of several beef producers that have used similar systems successfully for many years, one 2000 cow herd consists of Afrikana/Red Angus and Afrikana/Sussex bred to F1 Simbra bulls, the terminal calves are finished in a feedlot for a contracted market, the parent stock have to produce under harsh conditions with only mineral supplements on bushveld grazing/browsing, resulting in a profitable production system.

 

[Beef11]

Some people use F1 bulls. I have seen semen being sold from them. I would assume you would get the same amount of heterosis. I do not understand why the calves would not be uniform. They should be as uniform as the reverse. Under the assumption you are useing straight bred cows breeding to the F1 bull.

I agreed with this statement but then i got thinking. If you have F1 cows and a purebred bull they would be more uniform then F1 bull and purebred cows. Because in the bull scenario the purebred constant is one animal and you don't have the animal to animal differences. With the F1 bull you have an animal with a high level of heterozigosity across a group of individuals.

I don't think that there would be a huge difference but a difference none the less.

 

[novatech]

Some people use F1 bulls. I have seen semen being sold from them. I would assume you would get the same amount of heterosis. I do not understand why the calves would not be uniform. They should be as uniform as the reverse. Under the assumption you are useing straight bred cows breeding to the F1 bull.

I agreed with this statement but then i got thinking. If you have F1 cows and a purebred bull they would be more uniform then F1 bull and purebred cows. Because in the bull scenario the purebred constant is one animal and you don't have the animal to animal differences. With the F1 bull you have an animal with a high level of heterozigosity across a group of individuals.

I don't think that there would be a huge difference but a difference none the less.

Thanks That does make sense.

 

[Aero]

Why wouldn't this be true of F1 bulls?

A few reasons:
the most consistent production plan is from an F1. you can try to make F1 calves by using a purebred herd of cows and a purebred bull of a different breed, but there is one big problem: productive life of the cows. F1 cows have been shown to have a 25% longer productive life (25% more pounds of calf) than purebred cows. when you look at how many replacement heifers you need when the cows last 25% longer, there is quite a bit of difference in money. roughly, developing a heifer will cost you $800 more than a cow producing another calf. you also can sell that female calf for a profit that year instead of waiting the average 6-7 years for a cow to become profitable. basically, making F1 calves doesnt make good sense in the long run. to get around this, you need to make the 2nd most consistent animals: calves out of F1 cows and a purebred bull of a 3rd breed. this way you get max/optimum heterosis with a cow herd that is made to make you money.

using an F1 bull on purebred cows would make a good product, but would be giving up a lot on profitability. using F1 bulls on F1 cows would maximize heterosis but would throw a lot of factors into the mix making the animals less consistent and less predictable. using F1 bulls on a rainbow herd makes decent sense as long as you commit to using the same type for a good amount of time. this way, you have good consistency in the calves and drive the cow herd in the same direction without giving up heterosis. some stuff i have read shows that heterosis is retained for quite a few generations when used on any type of herd and is probably the best way to stabilize type in a mixed up herd.

In a commercial herd, the cows make you money, not the calves. you can use up your heterosis on the cow or the calf. use max/optimum heterosis creating cows that have a long productive life (preventing replacement heifer costs).

 

[denoginnizer]

I recently saw two F-1 charloais angus cross bulls sell at a bull auction. One brought 1500 the other brought 1800. Most of the other registered bulls were selling around 2800. The F-1's didnt generate much bidding

 

[3waycross]

If this has been asked and answered I apologize for bring it up again.

Here's my question, what would be the effect on Heterosis if the bull and the cow are both F-1 crosses of the same breed.

In other words A Gelbvieh/Shorthorn cow bred to a Gelbvieh/Shorthorn Bull.

Does this increase , decrease or maintain the heterosis factor?

 

[dun]

If this has been asked and answered I apologize for bring it up again.

Here's my question, what would be the effect on Heterosis if the bull and the cow are both F-1 crosses of the same breed.

In other words A Gelbvieh/Shorthorn cow bred to a Gelbvieh/Shorthorn Bull.

Does this increase , decrease or maintain the heterosis factor?

It decreases it. It's the recombining genes deal.

 

[3waycross]

If this has been asked and answered I apologize for bring it up again.

Here's my question, what would be the effect on Heterosis if the bull and the cow are both F-1 crosses of the same breed.

In other words A Gelbvieh/Shorthorn cow bred to a Gelbvieh/Shorthorn Bull.

Does this increase , decrease or maintain the heterosis factor?

It decreases it. It's the recombining genes deal.

Dun
What effect do you think it would have if the Bull were from a cross where neither parent was related to the cowherd?

 

[dun]

If this has been asked and answered I apologize for bring it up again.

Here's my question, what would be the effect on Heterosis if the bull and the cow are both F-1 crosses of the same breed.

In other words A Gelbvieh/Shorthorn cow bred to a Gelbvieh/Shorthorn Bull.

Does this increase , decrease or maintain the heterosis factor?

It decreases it. It's the recombining genes deal.

Dun
What effect do you think it would have if the Bull were from a cross where neither parent was related to the cowherd?

The relationship doesn;t make nay significant difference, it's the breed and it's gene pool. II asked severasl of the genetics wizards at a couple of the breed associations about heterosis when breeding 2 totally sperate linebred animals. The concensus was that it would be minimal at best. Something about there only be a relative few genes that actually make one individual animal different from another so the majority of the genes would still be the same.

 

[Boss Cowman]

not trying to get anyone riled up, but why does meat animal research center and university of nebraska use a 25% cross each of the following hereford angus sim and gelbvieh for their marc 1 cows.

 

[Aero]

If this has been asked and answered I apologize for bring it up again.

Here's my question, what would be the effect on Heterosis if the bull and the cow are both F-1 crosses of the same breed.

In other words A Gelbvieh/Shorthorn cow bred to a Gelbvieh/Shorthorn Bull.

Does this increase , decrease or maintain the heterosis factor?

there is a decrease in heterosis, but not very much from what i have read.

 

[Aero]

not trying to get anyone riled up, but why does meat animal research center and university of nebraska use a 25% cross each of the following hereford angus sim and gelbvieh for their marc 1 cows.

i think it's a quasi-arbitrary breed makeup that should maximize heterosis and keep the 50-50 british continental components. they have many other breed combos, this is just 1 of them.