EPD's

[dun]

Badlands,
are you saying that she cant be reproduced consistently with careful planning and a concentrated breeding program? if you breed the same parents over and over, how many are going to end up like her?

Some may be able to be duplicated, but not all. There are way to many random gene pair possibilitys unless a specific bull and cow are homozygous for everything, sometimes you're going to come up a klinker.
There was an old Holstein bull who's daughters milked in the hundred plus pounds a day range. None of their daughters milked worth squat and none of his sons daughters milked all that great. But that particular bull could be bred to darn near anything and get eye popping milk production.
Sometimes the planets, stars and genes just line up perfectly, most of the time they don;t.

dun

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"Some" cattle are prepotent & "stamp" their offspring, who then grow up to be like the parent. But others, can always raise a good one that NEVER reproduces a good one. Just depends on the gene makeup of the individual. Many times that 1 great one is because it is at the ultimate point of the "swing of the pendilum" - a freak so to speak.

BRG

remember, if a birth EPD is a +6, his calves will only be 6% heavier than a bull with a 0 bw EPD. That really isn't that much.

That is not quite right. +6 vs 0 BW means 6 POUNDS more. In the CE EPD you are talking % more (or less) calving difficulties -Bull A +6 CE vs Bull B 0 CE means Bull A will have 6% less calving difficulties than Bull B.
So 6# for an BE EPD is a HUGE difference.

And Ollie - I would tell him to use a Simmental bull with a +10 CE and a +5 maternal CE

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Sorry Dun - we were typing at the same time. Hmmm - kinda think alike too.

 

[BRG]

Well, then 6 lbs isn't very much either.

 

[Aero]

And Ollie - I would tell him to use a Simmental bull with a +10 CE and a +5 maternal CE

why would you have the CEM so low? why not +10? is it less important for daughters to calve easily?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Well, then 6 lbs isn't very much either.

No - when you are talking EPD - 6# BW is a huge difference. We are talking averages.
At least in the Simmental breed, a 0 BW bull is MUCH better than a +6 BW sire. I would NOT use a +6 BW on a heifer.
Although I put more emphasis on the CE EPD, it is much more meaningful in our breed.

 

[BRG]

I know that, but if you have a bull that has a 0 BW and he is giving you 80 lbs bw on average, and then you have a bull that is +6 and he is giving you an 86 bw on average, that bw of a 6 higher is not as bad as everyone thinks.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

We keep overlapping messages.
BRG, you can look at it any way you want - a +6 BW is too high for me to use on heifers. I have one AI bull with a +8 CE and a +5 BW and I have calved to him many times. I would NEVER use him on a heifer. He will occasionally give you a 120# calf. That's what I mean about averages. He MAY throw a small 75# calf, but it's that occasional large calf that will get you.
Aero - for my breed - breed average CE is +6 and MCE is +2 - so a +5 MCE is great. If you can find a +10 CE with a +10 MCE, that is even better. But those bulls are far & few because you are talking antaganistic traits. "Generally" if you are talking about a Calving Ease bull, you "used" to be talking about a bull that will not give you "growthy" daughters to keep in your herd. Now, in these modern days of EPD's, we have been able to pick & choose "outliners" to get those CE bulls with daughters growthy enough to be CE females.
Hope that made sense????

 

[Brandonm2]

I agree that each herd has one brandom2. The problem is that she does not repeat herself, for whatever reason. If what she is could be selected for, she would have repeated herself in her daughters and sons, thus every cow in the herd would soon have IT. In a nutshell, she is perfect by chance, not by design.

Badlands

Every time the best bass fisherman drops his anchor and starts casting he doesn't always catch a fish either. 'It is only in the relentless pursuit of victory that it can be achieved'. I disagree with the "perfect by chance" reasoning. To get THAT cow, some cattleman had to select which bull he was going to buy and which heifers he was going to retain to produce that mating that became THAT cow and he had to have the wisdom to recognize THAT cow when he was picking out which heifers to retain. How the alleles line up is purely by chance. The breeder however is picking the genotype when he is making his breeding decisions so she IS perfect "by design" even if 19 times out of 20 or 999 times out of a 1000 a breeder's efforts do NOT yield similar success. IF you kept every heifer out of THAT cow and she never produced a cow as good as herself; then there are two things at work here....you either did a poor job at bull selection (ie you never bred her to a bull who is as good as she is) or two she is just a freak and is not really that good a cow at all if she can't pass it on to her offspring. Both worst case scenarios probably happen a lot more often than the best case scenario.......you found a classic cow family that raises the bar for your herd and/or their breed. Producing and identifying THAT cow that raises the total performance bar to where you want it to be really needs to be in the back of the mind of all seedstock producers. It is easy to get in the rut of just multiplying popular pedigrees and/or EPDs and overlook the real goals of a breeding program.

 

[BRG]

Who said anything about breeding heifers??????

I was just saying that their isn't that much difference. Most everyone seems to stay away from a bull who is just a little higher. Red Angus is something like a 0.6 on average, but for some reason a +4 is out of line. It isn't for me, but for most people it is. That is only 3.5 lbs heavier than average.

I bring this up because of a outstanding, but most everyone I talk to says that +4 BW will keep them from using him.

 

[Brandonm2]

Who said anything about breeding heifers??????

I was just saying that their isn't that much difference. Most everyone seems to stay away from a bull who is just a little higher. Red Angus is something like a 0.6 on average, but for some reason a +4 is out of line. It isn't for me, but for most people it is. That is only 3.5 lbs heavier than average.

I bring this up because of a outstanding, but most everyone I talk to says that +4 BW will keep them from using him.

I think that you are forgetting that the numbers are just AVERAGES. 2 pounds more birth weight does not mean that every calf by bull B is going to be 2 pounds heavier than cakves by bull A it means that bull B typically throws more heavy calves than bull A and we quantify that with the EPD. If you breed them both to a 1000 cows, Bull A will throw some very heavy calves and Bull B will throw some very lite calves. All the EPD is telling you is that you are more likely to get a HEAVY calf with Bull B than with Bull A. The higher the birth weight EPD the greater the risk of a TOO big calf that could cost you a good heifer. Likewise if you pursue the lowest possible birth weight in your breed you are more likely to get some little dinky 55 pound calves that never fully catch up at weaning.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

BRG - this particular bull is one of my favorites, but I am very choosy as to which COW I will use him on. She has to have low BW EPD's herself to offset his High BW.

As far as great cows, I have some great cow families. And the greatness passes on generation after generation. I had an 18 year old that gave me 17 calves (12 heifers). I presently have 16 breeding age females in that cow family, and have probably sold the best offsprings produced in that family and still have what I consider great genes in my herd.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Brandonm2
We overlapped again, but yes, I agree! you said it well.

 

[BRG]

Yes they are all off of averages, A bw EPD that is 4 points higher still doesn't mean the bw will be huge. Most of our herdsires have around a +3 and we never get any real big bw's. They average 82lbs this last year. What would happen if I would use a -3 bw bull? I know because I have one. The bw's average right at 70lbs. (by EPD's that is a 7 point spread) If you are breeding heifers that 70 lbs bw is perfect. But I wouldn't really want my mature cows to have bw's that light. So why won't people use a bull that makes them 80 to 90lbs calves. Those are just the right size to me. They will perform at the top on the cow and in the lot.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

IN MY OPINION - breeders who state that EPD's don't do much to answer their most pressing questions either don't KNOW their "most pressing questions" -at all - or they don't REALLY KNOW how to utilize EPD's!

Doc , you're one of my favorite people so don't take it personal. I am in the purebred business in a real small way. One of the pressing questions by one of my friends in the commercial business in a fairly big way is " How can I lower dystocia on the set of cows I currently have". So , I've stated a pressing question, what's your epd answer? Please remember that this particular cattleman that I have in mind buys bulls as yearlings or two year olds and burns them up by the time they are 5 or so. I had 2 more paragraphs but I erased them. Lets keep it simple.

ollie?-

I am not taking your comments personally, although I really am frustrated that so many breeders, whom I think should be able to relate circumstances, conditions and "pressing questions" in Beef Cattle management and breeding situations to Genetics, and the "Cause and Effect" of not understanding the consequences of ignoring the importance of being able to use them to the breeder's benefit! I am not so radical as to think that we should "Live by the Sword and Die by the Sword" - so to speak, but for some producers to so vehemently oppose even a modicum of consideration to utilize the science of EPD's for their financial and Beef Breeding successes is tantamount to being Hoist by their Own Petard! Another analogy would be their playing Russian Roulette with their own Herd Genetics! But - - - that's their problem - - not mine!

Now - - back to the question that your commercial friend had - "How can I lower dystocia on the set of cows I currently have?" And you requested that we keep it simple.

Ollie - it is impossible to keep simple a problem that is as complicated as Dystocia (Difficult calving). To simplify the discussion somewhat I have included some causes for thought and consideration. I won't attempt to cover them all.

Understanding the Causes of Dystocia
Many factors influence the incidence of dystocia, including:

Age of dam
Calf birth weight
Dam's pelvic area
Sex of calf
Size of the dam
Gestation length
Breed and genotype of sire
Breed and genotype of dam
Condition of dam
Nutrition of the dam
Shape of the calf
Position or presentation in the uterus
Geographic conditions
Other unknown factors

Most of these factors can be grouped into two classifications:

Factors affecting size and shape of the calf
Factors affecting the ability of the dam to give birth
The interaction between these groups of factors determines the incidence of dystocia. In general, dystocia occurs when the size of the fetus is incompatible with the size of the pelvic opening of the cow, when the fetus is abnormally presented (breech birth, head or foot back, etc.), or when the cow does not experience normal parturition due to weakness, stress or hormonal abnormalities. By far the most common cause is the fetus is too large or the cow is too small. However, much can be done to ensure that fetus size is compatible with the opening of the cow's pelvis.

Notice the last two sentences relating to the size of the fetus compared to the size of the cow! THAT is the operable situation when questioning the problem of dystocia. There are many other secondary causes - but fetal size and cow size is the workable and feasible factors which must be addressed immediately.

HOW?

Here comes the "EPD" answer! By carefully selecting the Bulls - AND cows - repeat - AND COWS - by ruthlessly observing Calving Ease (CE) AND Birthweight (BW) that EACH individual animal possesses! THAT is the simple answer. There are other inheritance traits and characteristics as well as managerial decisions which enter into the formula as well, as is indicated above, but how to arrive at that solution is through EPD's and study of Phenotype!

If your friend "- - -doesn't BELIEVE in EPD's !"- - well then - - he should give his managerial protocols a second look! He can attempt to match his Bull traits and characteristics selections to what his average cow herd traits are (if he knows them!) - or - he can purchase cows about which their EPD's are known. That could be expensive! Therefore the most practical approach to arriving at the answer to his pressing question is - SELECT BULL(s) WITH OPTIMAL CALVING EASE AND LOW BIRTH WEIGHT EPD's.

By keeping his pregnant cow's Body Condition Scores at 5 - 6, he will discover that they will have an easier calving experience and recovery.

ollie - that is as simple as I can make it!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Brandonm2]

If you are breeding heifers that 70 lbs bw is perfect. But I wouldn't really want my mature cows to have bw's that light. So why won't people use a bull that makes them 80 to 90 lbs calves. Those are just the right size to me. They will perform at the top on the cow and in the lot.

I have no disagreement with any of that. THAT said some people want bulls they can use on either cows or heifers. Others are trying to breed bulls that their buyers will purchase. IF your best customers wants bulls in the top 15% of the breed for low birth wt. EPD, I would be inclined to say "Yes Sir thank you for the business, Sir" and give it to them even though I know they are losing some weaning weight with that philosophy. We have a lot of OLD men owning and still running cows these days and they will often go way out of their way to make sure that they don't have to pull any calves EVEN if that means breeding their top cows to heifer bulls. Others just want to see "top 25% of the breed" written all the way across the bottom of the paper and don't care what exactly that means. "Curve bender" is the hot buzzword in the industry today and if a bull doesn't fit in that category some people just overlook him.

 

[ollie?]

SELECT BULL(s) WITH OPTIMAL CALVING EASE AND LOW BIRTH WEIGHT EPD's.
ollie - that is as simple as I can make it!
DOC HARRIS

Doc, you listed 13 things other than epd's that relate to dystocia. I'm aware of all those and a few more. But lets keep our discussion epd based. Since he's never going to buy an older bull that is proven on a heard of registered cows, lets assume that the epd's on any given bull that he will own is low. Since these are virgin bulls that he buys the CE epd will be very heavily loaded with the BW epd of the said individual. It boils down to BW epd on these young virgin bulls , would you agree? If so, we'll further discuss the validity of using BW epd's as a good indicator to avoid dystocia.
Thanks Doc for the discussion.

 

[BRG]

I have always said that breed what your customer wants, don't try to make your customer want what you like. But with that being said, everyone is playing the number game so much that they are hurting themselves. Yes, keep your epd's in check, but it seems as if most everyone forgot that THEY ARE A TOOL! If we all keep breeding negative BW to negative BW's you are going to end up with small pelvic females, and if you keep breeding huge yearling weight EPD bulls to to huge yearling weight cows. You will soon have a problem there as well. Same goes for all the traits.

I can see why the old guy don't want to have any calving problems, heck I don't want any calving problems, but we need to take a look at the animal too, not just the big or little bw EPD.

 

[Badlands]

I have always said that breed what your customer wants, don't try to make your customer want what you like.

If this is true, BRG, then a breeder's advertising wouldn't have to change over time. Flopping from feedlot in one ad to the cow in the next ad, to range management in the next ad to time of calving in the next ad, etc, etc. We wouldn't see genetic trends changing over time.

I have yet to meet the seedstock supplier who let's his commercial customers pick out his next herd sire.

Badlands

 

[BRG]

That is not what I meant. I mean that if your customer wants calving ease bulls then deliver that. If they want 4 frame bulls, then make them, don't try to sell them 7 frames. We always need to keep improving on what they want. But you can't sell farming equipment to a cowboy, so don't try too.