EPD's

[JHH]

How many people would use a bull with these epd's Hereford bull

Calv.
Ease
Direct = +1.9
Birthwt= +1.3 Weaning= +39 Yearling = +49 Milk = +9 milk and growth +26, Calv.EaseMat. +.05, MatureCowWeight +62 Carc +46,
Fat .003
. RibEyeArea.17 Marbling .10, CHBIndex$16

EPD +1.9 +1.3 +34 +49 +9 +26 +0.5 +62 +46 +0.003 +0.17 +0.10 +$ 16

 

[bse]

I know nothing about Herfords, but by his numbers there all below breed average, so just by numbers no wouldn't use him. Now that being said he very easily could be the best ever, older bull with not much data turned in, as in Angus know your pedigrees and work the epd's to fit what you need to accomplish. You can look at some of these older Angus bulls with epds that are way below average that Id use in a heartbeat if I could get the semen. Anakonian Dynamo (6639770) would be one that data was withheld on so his numbers are terrible.

 

[JHH]

The Sire of this calf has no EPD's and neither does the mother or father of the sire. So that's the problem. Yes some older genetics here. Calves are growing just as good if not better than anything else I have ever had. But these all have some guts to them. .

 

[elkwc]

The Sire of this calf has no EPD's and neither does the mother or father of the sire. So that's the problem. Yes some older genetics here. Calves are growing just as good if not better than anything else I have ever had. But these all have some guts to them. .

This is just an example of why many times EPD's can be misleading both ways. Other factors that influence EPD's are the environment, management practices. I've seen many of the EPD wonders that were creep fed from the time they were born. When comparing them to one who was never creep fed they look good but in the real world may not perform nearly as well. This example is just one of why I prefer to know how and individual was raised and actual numbers.

 

[Ebenezer]

EPDs are great tools to cull potential animals, extremes and types that you do not want to use. They can be good tools to select a group of potential animals for possible use. Two words that get confused are precision and accuracy.

The buzzword for most on EPDs is accuracy which is built on numbers of observations or weights to give us the picture of what the average offspring might be like from X bull or Y cow. But if we buy clothes and dress for the average temperature of the place we live we will be hot 49.5% of the year, cold 49.5% of the year and comfortable 1% of the year. Precision is how closely the range can be narrowed, much like the year-round balmy breezes on a sea island with minimal temperature variations. (Old term = cookie cutter)

So, how do we deal with precision? One is breeder integrity: did the breeder have the internal fortitude to breed the potentially great new bull to average cows in the first year or did they cherry pick? Were the weights, observations and measurements correct? How many potential half sibs that looked bad or performed poorly were not reported? Often, bad EPDs are human problems and not cattle problems.

How widely the close genetics have been used in the main population of the breed is as big. We have a fairly closed herd and it is amazing how poorly particular EPDs represent the function of the individuals. In situations like these, the breeder's familiarity and recommendations and the viewing of functional traits and actual data wins out hands down. That must be where this Hereford bull falls.

The other thing that bothers me is the fallout rates on mainstream sires that I have used. I waited for them to get plenty of "accuracy" on things like HP and yet the fallout rate for daughters is too high for the numbers to be precise or accurate.

But the most deceitful and devious issue is not traits potentially represented by EPDs but the obvious faults that have to be known on proven sires, lines and families. I just shipped a 5 YO daughter of a highly proven AI bull that is late bred and calves like clockwork. Her feet look like clown slippers and her calves could be used to recreate miniature wooly mammoths. I tossed out the rest of that semen when I saw her feet as a springing 2 YO. Temperament, feet, legs, stifles, adequate SC and what else really makes a cow herd besides EPDs? Give me good traits and I can live and work on things related to EPDs.

 

[dun]

But the most deceitful and devious issue is not traits potentially represented by EPDs but the obvious faults that have to be known on proven sires, lines and families. I just shipped a 5 YO daughter of a highly proven AI bull that is late bred and calves like clockwork. Her feet look like clown slippers and her calves could be used to recreate miniature wooly mammoths. I tossed out the rest of that semen when I saw her feet as a springing 2 YO. Temperament, feet, legs, stifles, adequate SC and what else really makes a cow herd besides EPDs? Give me good traits and I can live and work on things related to EPDs.

Back when I was training as a Customer Engineer for IBM, something they kept pounding into us was "Visual Observation of the Unit". That isn;t possible with AI bulls from catalogs, but after using a bull you can tell a lot by "observing" the results. That's also where the internet has really allowed sharing of information. Asking around about a specific bull will generally get you information from others that have used him.
When we were still adding to the herd from outside, the EPDs were used to narrow the field to those that met our criteria numbers wise. Then a half hour or so several times observing the individual was alwasy the final cut.

 

[SPH]

How many people would use a bull with these epd's Hereford bull

Calv.
Ease
Direct = +1.9
Birthwt= +1.3 Weaning= +39 Yearling = +49 Milk = +9 milk and growth +26, Calv.EaseMat. +.05, MatureCowWeight +62 Carc +46,
Fat .003
. RibEyeArea.17 Marbling .10, CHBIndex$16

EPD +1.9 +1.3 +34 +49 +9 +26 +0.5 +62 +46 +0.003 +0.17 +0.10 +$ 16

Gee, it seems as if I have seen this post on another board somewhere... :lol2:

JHH, just my opinion which to some may not be worth :2cents: but I'm sure by now you know where I stand on EPDs from past conversations and discussions. They wouldn't be ideal to me but we also raise very different bloodlines too so it's hard to compare apples to apples on just numbers alone. I've seen (and raised) animals with much better EPDs that don't always live up to their EPD numbers too so EPDs are not always the whole story behind an animal. Just based on EPDs alone he looks to be good for calving ease but lacking in about everything else. I looked up the registration on your bull and I am not familar with any of the bloodlines so I really can't tell you any more than if you believe in the genetics behind him and he's performing up to your standards and looks the part then who is anyone to tell you he's no good just because he doesn't have a spectacular EPD line.

Preferably I like to see animals that have both the EPDs with the phenotype and performance that match them but EPDs are just 1 tool and not the sole method of selection.

 

[elkwc]

EPDs are great tools to cull potential animals, extremes and types that you do not want to use. They can be good tools to select a group of potential animals for possible use. Two words that get confused are precision and accuracy.

The buzzword for most on EPDs is accuracy which is built on numbers of observations or weights to give us the picture of what the average offspring might be like from X bull or Y cow. But if we buy clothes and dress for the average temperature of the place we live we will be hot 49.5% of the year, cold 49.5% of the year and comfortable 1% of the year. Precision is how closely the range can be narrowed, much like the year-round balmy breezes on a sea island with minimal temperature variations. (Old term = cookie cutter)

So, how do we deal with precision? One is breeder integrity: did the breeder have the internal fortitude to breed the potentially great new bull to average cows in the first year or did they cherry pick? Were the weights, observations and measurements correct? How many potential half sibs that looked bad or performed poorly were not reported? Often, bad EPDs are human problems and not cattle problems.

How widely the close genetics have been used in the main population of the breed is as big. We have a fairly closed herd and it is amazing how poorly particular EPDs represent the function of the individuals. In situations like these, the breeder's familiarity and recommendations and the viewing of functional traits and actual data wins out hands down. That must be where this Hereford bull falls.

The other thing that bothers me is the fallout rates on mainstream sires that I have used. I waited for them to get plenty of "accuracy" on things like HP and yet the fallout rate for daughters is too high for the numbers to be precise or accurate.

But the most deceitful and devious issue is not traits potentially represented by EPDs but the obvious faults that have to be known on proven sires, lines and families. I just shipped a 5 YO daughter of a highly proven AI bull that is late bred and calves like clockwork. Her feet look like clown slippers and her calves could be used to recreate miniature wooly mammoths. I tossed out the rest of that semen when I saw her feet as a springing 2 YO. Temperament, feet, legs, stifles, adequate SC and what else really makes a cow herd besides EPDs? Give me good traits and I can live and work on things related to EPDs.

I agree. I talked to a registered breeder in this area who raises his cattle in a cake and short grass situation like most commercial breeders here do. They AI some and raise sound, functional cattle that perform well. They AI'ed to hottest, supposedly all around bulls available for 3 years. They quit after seeing his first daughters in production and customers having soundness issues with bulls they had purchased. The daughters not only had soundness issues but udder issues as well. I've talked to other breeders who have experienced the same issues with this sire and his progeny so it is a known fact and many commercial breeders want no part of them.

 

[JHH]

EPDs are great tools to cull potential animals, extremes and types that you do not want to use. They can be good tools to select a group of potential animals for possible use. Two words that get confused are precision and accuracy.

The buzzword for most on EPDs is accuracy which is built on numbers of observations or weights to give us the picture of what the average offspring might be like from X bull or Y cow. But if we buy clothes and dress for the average temperature of the place we live we will be hot 49.5% of the year, cold 49.5% of the year and comfortable 1% of the year. Precision is how closely the range can be narrowed, much like the year-round balmy breezes on a sea island with minimal temperature variations. (Old term = cookie cutter)

So, how do we deal with precision? One is breeder integrity: did the breeder have the internal fortitude to breed the potentially great new bull to average cows in the first year or did they cherry pick? Were the weights, observations and measurements correct? How many potential half sibs that looked bad or performed poorly were not reported? Often, bad EPDs are human problems and not cattle problems.

How widely the close genetics have been used in the main population of the breed is as big. We have a fairly closed herd and it is amazing how poorly particular EPDs represent the function of the individuals. In situations like these, the breeder's familiarity and recommendations and the viewing of functional traits and actual data wins out hands down. That must be where this Hereford bull falls.

The other thing that bothers me is the fallout rates on mainstream sires that I have used. I waited for them to get plenty of "accuracy" on things like HP and yet the fallout rate for daughters is too high for the numbers to be precise or accurate.

But the most deceitful and devious issue is not traits potentially represented by EPDs but the obvious faults that have to be known on proven sires, lines and families. I just shipped a 5 YO daughter of a highly proven AI bull that is late bred and calves like clockwork. Her feet look like clown slippers and her calves could be used to recreate miniature wooly mammoths. I tossed out the rest of that semen when I saw her feet as a springing 2 YO. Temperament, feet, legs, stifles, adequate SC and what else really makes a cow herd besides EPDs? Give me good traits and I can live and work on things related to EPDs.

I agree. I talked to a registered breeder in this area who raises his cattle in a cake and short grass situation like most commercial breeders here do. They AI some and raise sound, functional cattle that perform well. They AI'ed to hottest, supposedly all around bulls available for 3 years. They quit after seeing his first daughters in production and customers having soundness issues with bulls they had purchased. The daughters not only had soundness issues but udder issues as well. I've talked to other breeders who have experienced the same issues with this sire and his progeny so it is a known fact and many commercial breeders want no part of them.[/quote]

The lines I am using or are you talking about a totally different sire here?

 

[elkwc]

EPDs are great tools to cull potential animals, extremes and types that you do not want to use. They can be good tools to select a group of potential animals for possible use. Two words that get confused are precision and accuracy.

The buzzword for most on EPDs is accuracy which is built on numbers of observations or weights to give us the picture of what the average offspring might be like from X bull or Y cow. But if we buy clothes and dress for the average temperature of the place we live we will be hot 49.5% of the year, cold 49.5% of the year and comfortable 1% of the year. Precision is how closely the range can be narrowed, much like the year-round balmy breezes on a sea island with minimal temperature variations. (Old term = cookie cutter)

So, how do we deal with precision? One is breeder integrity: did the breeder have the internal fortitude to breed the potentially great new bull to average cows in the first year or did they cherry pick? Were the weights, observations and measurements correct? How many potential half sibs that looked bad or performed poorly were not reported? Often, bad EPDs are human problems and not cattle problems.

How widely the close genetics have been used in the main population of the breed is as big. We have a fairly closed herd and it is amazing how poorly particular EPDs represent the function of the individuals. In situations like these, the breeder's familiarity and recommendations and the viewing of functional traits and actual data wins out hands down. That must be where this Hereford bull falls.

The other thing that bothers me is the fallout rates on mainstream sires that I have used. I waited for them to get plenty of "accuracy" on things like HP and yet the fallout rate for daughters is too high for the numbers to be precise or accurate.

But the most deceitful and devious issue is not traits potentially represented by EPDs but the obvious faults that have to be known on proven sires, lines and families. I just shipped a 5 YO daughter of a highly proven AI bull that is late bred and calves like clockwork. Her feet look like clown slippers and her calves could be used to recreate miniature wooly mammoths. I tossed out the rest of that semen when I saw her feet as a springing 2 YO. Temperament, feet, legs, stifles, adequate SC and what else really makes a cow herd besides EPDs? Give me good traits and I can live and work on things related to EPDs.

I agree. I talked to a registered breeder in this area who raises his cattle in a cake and short grass situation like most commercial breeders here do. They AI some and raise sound, functional cattle that perform well. They AI'ed to hottest, supposedly all around bulls available for 3 years. They quit after seeing his first daughters in production and customers having soundness issues with bulls they had purchased. The daughters not only had soundness issues but udder issues as well. I've talked to other breeders who have experienced the same issues with this sire and his progeny so it is a known fact and many commercial breeders want no part of them.[/quote]

The lines I am using or are you talking about a totally different sire here?

totally different sire.