So the Leachman post got me thinking. How reliable are EPD's to begin with. All they are is an average between the dam and sire, not a true measure of a calfs genetic potential. If the industry wants to continue selling based on EPD's why don't they require a genetic test of all the calves wishing to be regestered? That way we will know the true potential of a calf instead of an idea of what they may have. I run into this problem myself with the milk EPD, my best cow has the worst milk EPD, but she is raising a really nice bull who is not missing a step. So I just wondered on everyones opinion on the EPD issue.
EPD's
- Thread starter Red007
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Red007":2uw4tw5v said:
They are not JUST an average of the dam and sire. An "Interim" EPD is calculated using the averages on an animal until his data and/or progeny data is submitted.
Will a genetic profile tell you if a bull is above or below average for progeny BW? WW? Calving ease?
I don't know of any animals that were sold based strictly on EPD's. Not saying there aren't any, but only a fool would use EPD's only.
Epd's are just another tool in the box.
"Will a genetic profile tell you if a bull is above or below average for progeny BW? WW? Calving ease?"
Actually they will. If you have the genetics of a good sample of the population, than you can find the adverage combination of alleles and determine what is above and what is below. It's all in the genes, they don't lie.
Actually they will. If you have the genetics of a good sample of the population, than you can find the adverage combination of alleles and determine what is above and what is below. It's all in the genes, they don't lie.
Red007":jxu8gnw9 said:
Lets make a deal here. If you will go out and do the research for us showing us which genetic markers are the genes for the 72 pound birth weight, 640 lb weaning weight, 5.5 pounds a day feedlot performance, 50% of the time Prime, Yield grade 1.5 carcasses, with tenderness, and have sisters who top out on the farm at 1085 and can eat thistle, blackberry bushes, broome straw, sagegrass, tumbleweed, and 3 year old pasture stored hay and still breed back every years we will gladly pay you $5 a head to test for it.
We are not quite there YET. We have 3 or 4 very inconclusive tests for tenderness likelihood, we are good at determining parentage, and we have a couple of very controversial tests that show whether or not an Angus steak is an Angus steak. That is about it. Maybe in 5 to 10 years we will have a DNA test for milking ability, calving ease, feed efficiency, or pneumonia immunity.....but it is not there yet.
While I'm no big fan of epd's or dna evaluation for progressing a successful herd of cows or a great herd bull, I think it's a tiny bit unfair to ask him to produce data that the epd crowd can't produce either. For example show me the bw epd that will correlate to a 72lb bw.Brandonm2":1jm50gqn said:
ollie?":3g02jkne said:
We KNOW that EPDs won't accurately predict what cow 000129A's calf born on April 2, 2007 will weigh. IF dna evaluation CAN'T do better, why bother with it??? At the moment the best we have are EPDs based on kin's performance....maybe SOME DAY DNA evaluation will raise the bar on the accuracy of our predictions.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
sigh Just about the time one thinks, "Well, perhaps the majority of breeders are finally beginning to understand that EPD's are generated by establishing contemporary GROUPS!" - -along comes another post that says, something like "EPD's are worthless as "you-know-whats" on a You-Know-What, even though EVERY BREEDER who is a successful producer of BETTER cattle than average uses them -usually intelligently - or some question arises that accuses some Breeder or Breed Association of being charlatans! Or that they are no darn good anyway, and only crooks use them to make their cattle appear better!
Hey - if you feel that EPD's are a waste of reading time, and too complicated for you to understand - why, what the heck! Don't waste your time trying to determine how or why Bull B and Cow C didn't have the PERFECT calf. Just blame it on lying breeders and EPD's and use your "good eye" to select your seedstock!
A contemporary group is a set of two OR MORE CALVES of the same sex and similar age that have been managed under similar practices. At this point in time after years of using EPD's wisely by thousands and thousands of breeders world wide, THAT is a heck of a contemporary group!! :shock: :roll:
But - - you know - - EPD's are not what they are cracked up to be, and most of the time most people don't understand that gibberish anyway! So just ignore all the hundreds of thousands of hours that have been expended by thousands of very dedicated and devoted people to get as close as possible to reasonable methods to improve YOUR cattle breeding methods and make YOU some profit - - which is really none of their business anyway - because they don't know what YOUR herd is like - or what YOU plan to do with YOUR cows, so just ignore all the EPD talk, keep your blood pressure down, and let the rest of the world raise improved cattle, and then you can, in six or eight years, buy the genetically improved cattle that those breeders who have tried to improve THEIR product have produced, and you don't have to work at thinking about it. Just copy what somebody else has done! 'Course, you are ten years behind the times, but - what the Hey! So what?? Just don't let the EPD's and the Phenotype get in the way of your "Good eye"!
DOC HARRIS
Hey - if you feel that EPD's are a waste of reading time, and too complicated for you to understand - why, what the heck! Don't waste your time trying to determine how or why Bull B and Cow C didn't have the PERFECT calf. Just blame it on lying breeders and EPD's and use your "good eye" to select your seedstock!
A contemporary group is a set of two OR MORE CALVES of the same sex and similar age that have been managed under similar practices. At this point in time after years of using EPD's wisely by thousands and thousands of breeders world wide, THAT is a heck of a contemporary group!! :shock: :roll:
But - - you know - - EPD's are not what they are cracked up to be, and most of the time most people don't understand that gibberish anyway! So just ignore all the hundreds of thousands of hours that have been expended by thousands of very dedicated and devoted people to get as close as possible to reasonable methods to improve YOUR cattle breeding methods and make YOU some profit - - which is really none of their business anyway - because they don't know what YOUR herd is like - or what YOU plan to do with YOUR cows, so just ignore all the EPD talk, keep your blood pressure down, and let the rest of the world raise improved cattle, and then you can, in six or eight years, buy the genetically improved cattle that those breeders who have tried to improve THEIR product have produced, and you don't have to work at thinking about it. Just copy what somebody else has done! 'Course, you are ten years behind the times, but - what the Hey! So what?? Just don't let the EPD's and the Phenotype get in the way of your "Good eye"!
DOC HARRIS
Doc, do you not feel like those statements are a little biased or unfair at least? I know several good breeders who privately have told me that that epd's don't do much to answer the breeders most pressing questions. Kit Pharo is one of those.I don't breed the kind of cattle he does and I don't know him personally but reading his news letters , he's no epd believer.Would you call him some one who doesn't care about the product they produce? I can go on and on but you know my feelings about epd's and I know yours. If you want to persue a dialog , pm me.DOC HARRIS":xd2h46ww said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Well said DOC!
I think the majority of people that disagree with the usefullness of EPD's just don't understand them.
I recently published in my newsletter a 25 year genetic trend chart for our Simmental breed. The changes made were drastic - and they were done using EPD's! These were antaganistic changes - like:
lower BW, higher CE AND higher MATERNAL CE.
Lower milk but higher weaning weights.
I think the majority of people that disagree with the usefullness of EPD's just don't understand them.
I recently published in my newsletter a 25 year genetic trend chart for our Simmental breed. The changes made were drastic - and they were done using EPD's! These were antaganistic changes - like:
lower BW, higher CE AND higher MATERNAL CE.
Lower milk but higher weaning weights.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
ollie? -ollie?":36n24vbl said:
I am glad to hear that you are aware of my feelings regarding EPD's. I could apply myself in an effort to skillfully explain the justification of considering EPD's in a comprensible manner for the benefit of ALL mating protocols. But the truth of the matter is - - I have already done that numerous times - numerous times!
But I will try again - ONE MORE TIME!
No - I DO think that my statements areBIASED - ABSOLUTELY! I do not think that they are "unfair" in the least! I stand by the strength of my convictions - and they are - that the "INTELLIGENT USE (and INTELLIGENT is the operable word here!) and APPLICATION of EPD's COMBINED WITH the all-comprehensive, pertinent considerations of optimal Phenotype for the specific use of the breeder's particular operation is compelling for the improvement of Seedstock or Terminal progeny!
IN MY OPINION - breeders who state that EPD's don't do much to answer their most pressing questions either don't KNOW their "most pressing questions" -at all - or they don't REALLY KNOW how to utilize EPD's! Example: (here is ANOTHER effort at explanation) - If you are raising Grapefruit (Rio Grande Valley Ruby Red's :heart: ) and somehow a Lemon found it's way into your seedstock operation - you can refute it, decry it, deny it, disparage it, ignore it, reject it, demean it, belie it, - - you can do anytrhing that you can think of to attempt to eliminate that Lemon from your genetics - BUT it is there, and it will remain there until you dilute its influence on your seedstock protocol. EVERYTHING is comprised of EPD's - good, bad, or UGLY - whether you want to recognize it or accept it or NOT! BELIEVE IT - OR NOT! Whether anyone wishes to believe that is their option. The facts are THERE. If one is bright enough to make proper and beneficial use of those facts is their choice. It makes not one bit of difference whether one CARES about the product that they produce or not - and I am sure that Kit cares VERY much about his operation and the people to whom he sells his bulls. He has developed his seedstock with EPD's which dictate Moderate, easy fleshing cattle which will thrive on terrible forage, and which will hustle over great distances to acquire it. I know that area at Cheyenne Wells, Colorado well, and one wouldn't expect a dog to survive on the land. But his cattle have been able to sustain his principles of "Tough Love" and "Survival of the Fittest" and have developed their own EPD's for that environment. You think that they don't have EPD's?? THINK AGAIN!
As you might surmise, I have given this topic, or subject, of EPD's a great deal of thought - and the understanding and usage of Phenotype is part and parcel of that discipline of education - the application of EPD's and Phenotypical selection of livestock is unseparable! It is as plain as the nose on your face - whether you want it to be there - OR NOT! There are good EPD's, BAD EPD's. different EPD's, desirable EPD's, UN-desirable EPD's,- - but just as sure as there are Genes which determine characteristics - there are EPD's which determine
EXPECTED PROGENY DIFFERENCES! You can't see or feel them, you can't smell them, you can't taste them, you can't hear them, - but you sure as heck can determine that they ARE there with your next calf crop!
It is getting a little tiring attempting to convince skeptics that the sun comes up in the East every morning - - but whether they want to believe it or not, it will come up - - and the SKY IS NOT FALLING!
DOC HARRIS
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
ollie? -ollie?":169jh03c said:
I am glad to hear that you are aware of my feelings regarding EPD's. I could apply myself in an effort to skillfully explain the justification of considering EPD's in a comprensible manner for the benefit of ALL mating protocols. But the truth of the matter is - - I have already done that numerous times - numerous times!
But I will try again - ONE MORE TIME!
No - I DO think that my statements are BIASED - ABSOLUTELY! I do not think that they are "unfair" in the least! I stand by the strength of my convictions - and they are - that the "INTELLIGENT USE (and INTELLIGENT is the operable word here!) and APPLICATION of EPD's COMBINED WITH the all-comprehensive, pertinent considerations of optimal Phenotype for the specific use of the breeder's particular operation is compelling for the improvement of Seedstock or Terminal progeny!
IN MY OPINION - breeders who state that EPD's don't do much to answer their most pressing questions either don't KNOW their "most pressing questions" -at all - or they don't REALLY KNOW how to utilize EPD's! Example: (here is ANOTHER effort at explanation) - If you are raising Grapefruit (Rio Grande Valley Ruby Red's :heart: ) and somehow a Lemon found it's way into your seedstock operation - you can refute it, decry it, deny it, disparage it, ignore it, reject it, demean it, belie it, - - you can do anytrhing that you can think of to attempt to eliminate that Lemon from your genetics - BUT it is there, and it will remain there until you dilute its influence on your seedstock protocol. EVERYTHING is comprised of EPD's - good, bad, or UGLY - whether you want to recognize it or accept it or NOT! BELIEVE IT - OR NOT! Whether anyone wishes to believe that is their option. The facts are THERE. If one is bright enough to make proper and beneficial use of those facts is their choice. It makes not one bit of difference whether one CARES about the product that they produce or not - and I am sure that Kit cares VERY much about his operation and the people to whom he sells his bulls. He has developed his seedstock with EPD's which dictate Moderate, easy fleshing cattle which will thrive on terrible forage, and which will hustle over great distances to acquire it. I know that area at Cheyenne Wells, Colorado well, and one wouldn't expect a dog to survive on the land. But his cattle have been able to sustain his principles of "Tough Love" and "Survival of the Fittest" and have developed their own EPD's for that environment. You think that they don't have EPD's?? THINK AGAIN!
As you might surmise, I have given this topic, or subject, of EPD's a great deal of thought - and the understanding and usage of Phenotype is part and parcel of that discipline of education - the application of EPD's and Phenotypical selection of livestock is inseparable! It is as plain as the nose on your face - whether you want it to be there - OR NOT! There are good EPD's, BAD EPD's. different EPD's, desirable EPD's, UN-desirable EPD's,- - but just as sure as there are Genes which determine characteristics - there are EPD's which determine
EXPECTED PROGENY DIFFERENCES! You can't see or feel them, you can't smell them, you can't taste them, you can't hear them, - but you sure as heck can determine that they ARE there with your next calf crop!
It is getting a little tiring attempting to convince skeptics that the sun comes up in the East every morning - - but whether they want to believe it or not, it will come up - - and the SKY IS NOT FALLING!
DOC HARRIS
EPDs are a tool, not a bible. I use them but don't live by them. I think they could be improved, especially on the cow side. A 10 year old cow is as proven as she can get, but her EPD's will not change to fit what she actually is, but a bull will change yearly because he will have 25 calves or more a year.
I don't think that carcass EPDs are very accurate. Only about 5% of the animals are carcass ultrasounded. We can't get a true idea, if only a handfull are done. I especially don't think the REA epd is accurate. I think the REA should be ratioed off of an inch per hundred pounds, making an inch be a 100 ratio, not from biggest to smallest. The way it is now, a bull can have several sons and daughters that ratio real high in a contemperary but still average under an inch per hundred pounds. His REA EPD will then go up, but in reality, he is siring offspring that is not even meeting industry demand. I see sires with high REA EPDs, but the offspring do not have acceptible measurements.
The thing about epds, everyone tries to have the biggest and best, but in reality, we don't need the biggest, and remember, if a birth EPD is a +6, his calves will only be 6% heavier than a bull with a 0 bw EPD. That really isn't that much.
I don't think that carcass EPDs are very accurate. Only about 5% of the animals are carcass ultrasounded. We can't get a true idea, if only a handfull are done. I especially don't think the REA epd is accurate. I think the REA should be ratioed off of an inch per hundred pounds, making an inch be a 100 ratio, not from biggest to smallest. The way it is now, a bull can have several sons and daughters that ratio real high in a contemperary but still average under an inch per hundred pounds. His REA EPD will then go up, but in reality, he is siring offspring that is not even meeting industry demand. I see sires with high REA EPDs, but the offspring do not have acceptible measurements.
The thing about epds, everyone tries to have the biggest and best, but in reality, we don't need the biggest, and remember, if a birth EPD is a +6, his calves will only be 6% heavier than a bull with a 0 bw EPD. That really isn't that much.
Brandonm2":2yyd3j6g said:
well Brandon,
if you have seen one animal that will do this, i can guarantee you they can identify the DNA markers for that combination. the DNA sequence will be exactly that of the animal you found. of course, there will be very specific handling requirements for this animal to turn out right. you will have to give it exactly the same environment with exactly the same experiences.
this example shows exactly why a few DNA markers mean very little. start cloning animals and have a set envronment and you will get closer. the sad part is that if you get it just right on your farm, nobody else will be able to replicate it on their farm.
Doc , you're one of my favorite people so don't take it personal. I am in the purebred business in a real small way. One of the pressing questions by one of my friends in the commercial business in a fairly big way is " How can I lower dystocia on the set of cows I currently have". So , I've stated a pressing question, what's your epd answer? Please remember that this particular cattleman that I have in mind buys bulls as yearlings or two year olds and burns them up by the time they are 5 or so. I had 2 more paragraphs but I erased them. Lets keep it simple.DOC HARRIS":11hf7iaj said:
Aero":1yx6rv14 said:
In theory, all the good cows share the same genes for important traits. I don't believe this but it is the theory behind such new fangled ideas like testing for the tenderness genetic markers. Will a bull with none of the so-called tenderness genes sire progeny that will yield incredibly tough carcasses? I seriously doubt it. If a bull has all of their tenderness genetic markers, will his progeny be more likely to hang tender cuts of meat? Based on the science, probably so. I think it is quite possible that there are other genetic markers out there that we can test for for many other traits.
Do I believe that future cattlemen will send in a blood or hair sample on a 2 day old calf and some lab will send them back a report (for a nice fee) that says....
(roughly) 'the sample calf has the genes for a 40% lighter birth weight in his progeny than breed avg. His genes are in the tops 22% for growth. The DNA analysis shows that his daughters will be 25% better than breed avg for milk and his DNA indicates that his progeny will be in top 10% of their breed for muscling, marbling, feed efficiency, ADG, and tenderness', etc? YES, I absolutely do believe that within 25 years such DNA analysis reports will be commercially available. The question of the day then will be: do these reports have any accuracy whatsoever? Somebody has got to do a LOT of research for us to ever get to that point though.
I also believe in the perfect cow. I have seen her before. In every herd that I have ever been associated with there is always THAT cow. You know the one. THE cow that stays in good condition in February when all the good quality hay has run out or in that bad drought in August. The cow that calves each and every year in the first ten days of the calving season unassisted. The cow that's always is in the top 1/3 of herd at weaning and whose calves always have that IT factor (no matter what bull selection errors we may or may not have made). The cow that never gets sick or tears down the fence. She is the ultimate goal of every maternal breeding program in existence (or SHOULD be). I think it is entirely theoretically possible too duplicate and multiply THAT cow. I don't think it is easy and I am not sure that cloning is the best tool for it; but YES I think it CAN be done.
.
I agree that each herd has one brandom2. The problem is that she does not repeat herself, for whatever reason. If what she is could be selected for, she would have repeated herself in her daughters and sons, thus every cow in the herd would soon have IT. In a nutshell, she is perfect by chance, not by design.
Badlands
Badlands":2kn7240i said:
Badlands is dead bang on. We had a great cow, that no matter what bull she was bred to her daughters were total and complete duds. They milked as well as she did but their calves were alwasy the lightest at weaning where as the old cows calves were alwasy the heaviest.
dun
Badlands,
are you saying that she cant be reproduced consistently with careful planning and a concentrated breeding program? if you breed the same parents over and over, how many are going to end up like her?
are you saying that she cant be reproduced consistently with careful planning and a concentrated breeding program? if you breed the same parents over and over, how many are going to end up like her?
More than if you don't have a breeding plan. That's the basis of sound breeding to breed cattle that work. That's why you see successful "cow families" in some operations and you see the bull of the month in others.Aero":xp6lm5ou said:
