EPD question

[rouxshortorn]

How does one come up with a # + or - for birth ,weaning , yearling, and so on expected progeny differences on Reg. papers? I'm trying to get more advanced so one day I can have a marketable bull or Dam to sell for more money.

 

[Frankie]

How does one come up with a # + or - for birth ,weaning , yearling, and so on expected progeny differences on Reg. papers? I'm trying to get more advanced so one day I can have a marketable bull or Dam to sell for more money.

"One" doesn't come up with the #s, the breed association does. Are you asking where EPDs come from?

 

[Avalon]

Production EPD's such as Birth, Weaning, Milk, Yearling are derived from multiple sources. I will not even guess how they do the calculations, However, Heres they way I understand it.
1. Weights/EPD's of the sire and his offsping are used 2. Dam and her offsring. 3. Actual weight and performance of the animal who is getting the numbers.
Production EPD's are expressed in pounds and is compared to breed Average. Example If you have a bull that is +100 for Yearling Weight. Assuming that breed average for YW is 1000 lbs. You have a Bull that could very well be 1100 lbs at yearling.
These numbers are not accurate in my book but they are a good tool to start with.
But if you are needing to get started. You can begin by calling your breed reps. It all takes diligint record keeping and is something done over time. I once bought the "perfect bull" who had no EPD's. It took to years of documenting his progeny before we started getting something to look at EPD wise.

 

[Frankie]

Production EPD's such as Birth, Weaning, Milk, Yearling are derived from multiple sources. I will not even guess how they do the calculations, However, Heres they way I understand it.
1. Weights/EPD's of the sire and his offsping are used 2. Dam and her offsring. 3. Actual weight and performance of the animal who is getting the numbers.
Production EPD's are expressed in pounds and is compared to breed Average. Example If you have a bull that is +100 for Yearling Weight. Assuming that breed average for YW is 1000 lbs. You have a Bull that could very well be 1100 lbs at yearling.
These numbers are not accurate in my book but they are a good tool to start with.
But if you are needing to get started. You can begin by calling your breed reps. It all takes diligint record keeping and is something done over time. I once bought the "perfect bull" who had no EPD's. It took to years of documenting his progeny before we started getting something to look at EPD wise.

EPDs don't compare to "average." EPD averages change with every sire summary. When AAA started EPDs, they established a baseline and EPDs are + or - compared to that base, not breed average. I assume other breeds did the same.

EPDs express what you expect from an animal's progeny, not from the bull himself. If you have a bull with a YW weight EPD of 100, you would expect his calves (progeny) to weigh 100 more pounds as yearlings than if you bred those same cows to a bull of the same breed with a YW EPD of 0. EPDs will never tell you what something will weigh. They just allow you to compare animals.

Contacting a breed rep is a good idea. Different breeds have different EPDs and a rep should be able to explain them.

 

[Avalon]

Sorry guys I muffed that one. Its been to long since ai studied it.

 

[TB-Herefords]

To create those wonderful spreads from BW to YW on paper you have to choose the bulls and cows with those numbers, and breed that into your herd. It is something that will take time; you can't buy those EPD's and expect to see them in your first calve crop. You also have to have a great culling program. Those calves at the bottom of the crop need to be sold to make room and revenue for better cattle. Some times you have to give up those outstanding EPD numbers for genetics. In my opinion a animal with balanced EPD's is better than and animal with a great spread or big carcass numbers. You need to remember the heaviest and biggest of EPD's may not be the best selling in your piticular area. The best example might be milk EPD. If your area can't support the higher milk production of the cow she will suffer BCS to make up for it. Over time that will lead to a lot of problems. Know your area and what works.

Here is EPD's as I know them. They are the best way to know the how that animal will perform. Accual weights and gentics are put into the EPD's all ready; what seperates EPD's from those two is ENVIROMENT and CONTEMPERARY GROUPS. Enviroment: Joe owns 50 head of cattle and runs them on irrigated ground. Say average BW=80 avg. WW=650 avg. YW=1200. Jill owns 50 head and runs them on BLM and dry land pastures. Say avg. BW=75 avg. WW=560 avg. YW=1075.
Joe and Jill have totaly different operations but they both could have the same avg. EPD's of BW=2.5 WW=46 YW=75. Why? The EPD's are run off of CONTEMPERARY GROUPS; not whole breed comparison. With in the there operations thier cattle were compared. Then there is a breed avg. and the EPD's will be above or below those numbers to tell you what you should expect. They do this because Joe's pasture will be more productive that Jill's. So you can't compair cattle that were not given the same opportunity to grow. Maybe Joe will finish his calve different that Jill. This also goes from year to year. One year Joe has a drought his weights will suffer but not his EPD's. Accuracy; don't pass this up. The higher the accuracy the more true the traits. This brings me to AI's. AI is the chance to choose the best bull possible. So do it. One last thing; some people say; well what are you going to do keep replacments-sale the calves-background them. BALANCED TRAITS; the genetics will be in your herd for a long time so don't say I am going to keep repalacments so I will AI a bull with calving ease and high milk. I am going to sell calves so I will AI a bull with high WW and high YW. Things change; a plan for the calve crop is good but if a few cows don't come out of the hills and one or two are open then what. You can choose a bull for select traits; but make sure what he is lacking you cows are exceeding in. But than that is just BALANCE.

 

[Angus In Texas]

Frankie is right about the interpretation of the EPDs. But sometimes EPDs can be skewed by "proper" or improper as some say contemporary grouping, especially the BW, WW, and YW EPDs. Ultrasound EPDs are harder to manipulate due to the third party collection and reporting. But you can still group animals so that certain ones have better odds of ratioing high.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Roux - what are you really asking???

 

[dyates]

To create those wonderful spreads from BW to YW on paper you have to choose the bulls and cows with those numbers, and breed that into your herd. It is something that will take time; you can't buy those EPD's and expect to see them in your first calve crop. You also have to have a great culling program. Those calves at the bottom of the crop need to be sold to make room and revenue for better cattle. Some times you have to give up those outstanding EPD numbers for genetics. In my opinion a animal with balanced EPD's is better than and animal with a great spread or big carcass numbers. You need to remember the heaviest and biggest of EPD's may not be the best selling in your piticular area. The best example might be milk EPD. If your area can't support the higher milk production of the cow she will suffer BCS to make up for it. Over time that will lead to a lot of problems. Know your area and what works.

Here is EPD's as I know them. They are the best way to know the how that animal will perform. Accual weights and gentics are put into the EPD's all ready; what seperates EPD's from those two is ENVIROMENT and CONTEMPERARY GROUPS. Enviroment: Joe owns 50 head of cattle and runs them on irrigated ground. Say average BW=80 avg. WW=650 avg. YW=1200. Jill owns 50 head and runs them on BLM and dry land pastures. Say avg. BW=75 avg. WW=560 avg. YW=1075.
Joe and Jill have totaly different operations but they both could have the same avg. EPD's of BW=2.5 WW=46 YW=75. Why? The EPD's are run off of CONTEMPERARY GROUPS; not whole breed comparison. With in the there operations thier cattle were compared. Then there is a breed avg. and the EPD's will be above or below those numbers to tell you what you should expect. They do this because Joe's pasture will be more productive that Jill's. So you can't compair cattle that were not given the same opportunity to grow. Maybe Joe will finish his calve different that Jill. This also goes from year to year. One year Joe has a drought his weights will suffer but not his EPD's. Accuracy; don't pass this up. The higher the accuracy the more true the traits. This brings me to AI's. AI is the chance to choose the best bull possible. So do it. One last thing; some people say; well what are you going to do keep replacments-sale the calves-background them. BALANCED TRAITS; the genetics will be in your herd for a long time so don't say I am going to keep repalacments so I will AI a bull with calving ease and high milk. I am going to sell calves so I will AI a bull with high WW and high YW. Things change; a plan for the calve crop is good but if a few cows don't come out of the hills and one or two are open then what. You can choose a bull for select traits; but make sure what he is lacking you cows are exceeding in. But than that is just BALANCE.

Thank you very much. This is the most sensible explanation I have ever heard of EPD's. I see too many people buying cattle with high EPD's from farms managed differently and/or 1500 miles away in a completely different environment and wonder why they have poor results.

 

[Frankie]

To create those wonderful spreads from BW to YW on paper you have to choose the bulls and cows with those numbers, and breed that into your herd. It is something that will take time; you can't buy those EPD's and expect to see them in your first calve crop. You also have to have a great culling program. Those calves at the bottom of the crop need to be sold to make room and revenue for better cattle. Some times you have to give up those outstanding EPD numbers for genetics. In my opinion a animal with balanced EPD's is better than and animal with a great spread or big carcass numbers. You need to remember the heaviest and biggest of EPD's may not be the best selling in your piticular area. The best example might be milk EPD. If your area can't support the higher milk production of the cow she will suffer BCS to make up for it. Over time that will lead to a lot of problems. Know your area and what works.

Here is EPD's as I know them. They are the best way to know the how that animal will perform. Accual weights and gentics are put into the EPD's all ready; what seperates EPD's from those two is ENVIROMENT and CONTEMPERARY GROUPS. Enviroment: Joe owns 50 head of cattle and runs them on irrigated ground. Say average BW=80 avg. WW=650 avg. YW=1200. Jill owns 50 head and runs them on BLM and dry land pastures. Say avg. BW=75 avg. WW=560 avg. YW=1075.
Joe and Jill have totaly different operations but they both could have the same avg. EPD's of BW=2.5 WW=46 YW=75. Why? The EPD's are run off of CONTEMPERARY GROUPS; not whole breed comparison. With in the there operations thier cattle were compared. Then there is a breed avg. and the EPD's will be above or below those numbers to tell you what you should expect. They do this because Joe's pasture will be more productive that Jill's. So you can't compair cattle that were not given the same opportunity to grow. Maybe Joe will finish his calve different that Jill. This also goes from year to year. One year Joe has a drought his weights will suffer but not his EPD's. Accuracy; don't pass this up. The higher the accuracy the more true the traits. This brings me to AI's. AI is the chance to choose the best bull possible. So do it. One last thing; some people say; well what are you going to do keep replacments-sale the calves-background them. BALANCED TRAITS; the genetics will be in your herd for a long time so don't say I am going to keep repalacments so I will AI a bull with calving ease and high milk. I am going to sell calves so I will AI a bull with high WW and high YW. Things change; a plan for the calve crop is good but if a few cows don't come out of the hills and one or two are open then what. You can choose a bull for select traits; but make sure what he is lacking you cows are exceeding in. But than that is just BALANCE.

Thank you very much. This is the most sensible explanation I have ever heard of EPD's. I see too many people buying cattle with high EPD's from farms managed differently and/or 1500 miles away in a completely different environment and wonder why they have poor results.

I think you misunderstand. EPDs strip out management, climate, etc. Since they're created with information on animals from all across the country, in different climates, different management, they are the best indicator of an animal's breeding ability. If you use just the actual performance of an animal, his own BW, WW, YW, etc., those could be manipulated by management. A young animal's EPDs are possibly going to change as he gets older and information is reported on his calves, his siblings, etc. But the key to avoiding that is to AI to only established bulls with high accuracies on their EPDs. Or buy a bull whose parents are from a long line of cattle with the EPDs you're interested in.

 

[rouxshortorn]

Roux - what are you really asking???

I was trying to find out who did the number's and kind of how to read them or use them?

 

[dun]

Roux - what are you really asking???

I was trying to find out who did the number's and kind of how to read them or use them?

Most oof the associations have them calculated by a copule of universitys. How to read them is to some degree dependant on the particualr breed associaiton. Each of the major breed associations have a website that will tell you how their particular EPDs work.
You can try this link for a guide
http://redangus.org/index.php?option=co ... Itemid=135
If it doesn;t work let me know and I download it

 

[TB-Herefords]

No Frankie you misunderstand. The EPDs factor in climate and enviroment. Thats why they have contemperary groups. A piticular group run on the same climate and ground will be compared to help create the data. How the cattle performed with in that group added with thier genetics produces EPD's. Like dyates said High EPD's that didn't perform. If you buy a bull from a breeder that put a ADG of 3.5 lbs from Wean to Yearling, the bull yearlings out at 1350; you cant expect your bulls to yearling out at 1350 unless you run a very very similar feed program and the maternal side has similar growth. Although If his Yearling EPD is 98 and the breed avg. is 75 crossed on similar cows his offspring should be 28 lbs heavier that the avg.. You cant take a bull thats 30 lbs heavier than avg. and cross him on a cow thats 3 lbs under avg. and expect 30 lbs heavier calve crop. That is where the genetics come in. As for false repots; know your breeder before you trust them. It take some 200 to 300 head of off spring to develop High accuracy EPDs. If the accuracy is there I trust the EPDs. If not you have to trust the breeder.

ROUX
The breeder turns them into the Assn. The Assn. then processes them to produce EPD's. They will have little to no accuracy at this time. Accuracy can be read below the EPD numbers. As you turn in WW and YW the number may change slightly but usually only a few lbs. The more data you turn in the higher the accuracy. As the your animal produces calves of its own the numbers will change based off of those calves performance. The Sire and Dames offsping; other than your animal; will also change the numbers based on thier performance. That is the genetics part of EPD's

Lets read'em:

A: CE=3.0 BW=0.7 WW=51 YW=94 MILK=29 REA=.37 IMF=.19

B:CE=-1.6 BW=3.2 WW=45 YW=68 MILK=16 REA=.03 IMF=.06

Breed AVG.

CE=1.0 BW=2.5 WW=35 YW=70 MILK=10 REA=.15 IMF=.00

Calving ease is more important than birth weight. Animal A will have a better calving season than animal B crossed on the breed average animal. The higher above breed average the easier calver. Lower below worse.

Birth weight is not as important as CE because the weight doesn't matter if the calf cant calve. Generally lighter BW easier calver; but not always. I have a few cow's that calve 100lbs calves and are done calving in 30 to 45 min.; no assistance just pop out. Personaly I have never had a big fram 75lbs calve that had to be pulled. Animal A will be 1.8lbs lighter on BW that the breed avg. and animal B will be .7 lbs heavier than the breed avg. A to B: A will be 2.5 lbs lighter than B.

Wean weight. A will be 16 lbs heavier than breed avg.; B 10 lbs; and A to B 6 lbs differance.

Yearling I'll let you figure out.

Milk the same; keep in mind you don't want your cow's to produce more milk than your forage can supplie.

REA and IMF: rib eye area and intermuscular fat are essentially the same; but those aren't accual number like lbs and size. They do relate to size and amount of IMF. I believe these are EPDs that are focused on more now that ever before. As we try to better our food supply with quality cuts these are the two traits that will help the most. 17 and 18 inch ribeyes have a lot lower demand than 13 and 14 inch. Bigger cattle are not better. They just weigh more. There might be someone who can translate these traits better.

Most importantly you have to breed up you genetics and performance.

A we know

C: CE=-11.3 BW=4.9 WW=32 YW=51 MILK=4 REA=-.10 IMF=-.22

cross these two animals and you will not get the performance of animal A.

 

[Frankie]

No Frankie you misunderstand. The EPDs factor in climate and enviroment. Thats why they have contemperary groups. A piticular group run on the same climate and ground will be compared to help create the data. How the cattle performed with in that group added with thier genetics produces EPD's. Like dyates said High EPD's that didn't perform. If you buy a bull from a breeder that put a ADG of 3.5 lbs from Wean to Yearling, the bull yearlings out at 1350; you cant expect your bulls to yearling out at 1350 unless you run a very very similar feed program and the maternal side has similar growth. Although If his Yearling EPD is 98 and the breed avg. is 75 crossed on similar cows his offspring should be 28 lbs heavier that the avg.. You cant take a bull thats 30 lbs heavier than avg. and cross him on a cow thats 3 lbs under avg. and expect 30 lbs heavier calve crop. That is where the genetics come in. As for false repots; know your breeder before you trust them. It take some 200 to 300 head of off spring to develop High accuracy EPDs. If the accuracy is there I trust the EPDs. If not you have to trust the breeder.

Breed associations do use contemporary groupings for EPDs. But they don't take environment or management into consideration. I run cattle on native grass and I report, say 600 lb WW weights. You may run yours on irrigated, knee high forage and report 800 lb WW weights. It doesn't matter what weights we report. What matters is the ranking of each animal within their contemporary group. That's how they take environment and management out of the mix.

And you are completely and totally wrong about saying an animal with a 98 lb weight will produce a calf weigh 28 pounds more. EPDs will never, ever tell you what something will weigh. They can't possibly do that. If you breed a Jersey cow and a Char cow to the same bull, do you expect their calves to weigh the same? Of course not. EPDs will only tell you that if you breed those two cows to a bull with a WW EPD (for example) of 50, you would EXPECT the calves to weigh 50 more pounds at weaning than IF YOU BRED THEM TO A BULL WITH A WW EPD of 0.

ROUX, read Dun's link and check back if you have questions.

 

[rouxshortorn]

Roux - what are you really asking???

I was trying to find out who did the number's and kind of how to read them or use them?

Most oof the associations have them calculated by a copule of universitys. How to read them is to some degree dependant on the particualr breed associaiton. Each of the major breed associations have a website that will tell you how their particular EPDs work.
You can try this link for a guide
http://redangus.org/index.php?option=co ... Itemid=135
If it doesn;t work let me know and I download it

Thanx DUN great sight right colcr wrong bred lol Thanx again ROUX

 

[TB-Herefords]

I think you are completely misunderstanding me or I am not translating well.

I am not saying if you take a bull that is 28lbs over the breed avg. you can breed him to you cross cows and recieve 28 lbs heavier calves. I am saying his EPD's are 28 lbs over the breed avg. With in the breed. You should be able to expect heavier calves with this bull since he is 28 lbs over the breed avg.

Contermperay groups is from breeder to breeder. Thats why you turn in weights. I avg. 750lbs WW but those calve that are over the avg. with in my herd will produce better WW EPD's those that are under the avg. will produce worse. Same goes for you with avg. 600lbs WW those with in your group excell the avg. will produce better EPD's and those that are below will produce worse. Thats how enviroment and conditions are factored in. I have better pastures wetter year so my avg. is higher; thats why they have COMTEMPERARY GROUPS from breeder to breeder. Before you turn in you weights the EPD's are just genetic. After it plays in the rest.

If you goto the Hereford website they have Hereford 101 go to archives they have a web show about EPD's and understanding them.

 

[dun]

If the Hereford association uses the breed average in computing EPDs then they're the only one I'm aware of. It's as Frankiie has stated, a calf sired by a bull of an EPD of 50 will give you a calf (66% of the time at the most) that will be 50 pounds heaiver then a calf sired by a bull with an EPD of zero when mated to identical cows.

 

[TB-Herefords]

That's the exact same thing; 50 over zero as saying 28lbs over the average. Why compare them to the avg.; no one buys bulls or cows with EPDs of zero. That's why we have breed avg. EPDs. To show how that animal competes against the breed avg. He also says you can never ever tell what an animal will weigh. Then he states the 50lbs heavier calves. I never said "If you breed a bull that is 30 lbs over the avg. than you should expect a 630 lbs calve" that's crazy. I understand that EPDs crossed on commercial cow will produce mixed results but A bull crossed on the avg. cow to the avg. bull should produce avg. EPD. when you use a bull that is 28lbs over you should expect; breed to an avg. cow; that calved to wean 28 lbs heavier than avg. Zero and avg. are the same. Every breed uses an avg. not zero. All associations use the same equation for coming up with EPDs; its an equation used by anyone wanting expected results. You have to know the equation and where everything goes though. It has been around for ever.

It doesn't matter what weights we report. What matters is the ranking of each animal within their contemporary group. That's how they take environment and management out of the mix.

Thats exactly how the enviroment and management are put in. The contemporary groups are from breeder to breeder. They dont compair my cattle in Idaho and Joe's cattle in Texas and call them a contemporary group. My cattle and my neighbors cattle across the fence are two different groups. You can have two groups with in your herd; You calve from Jan to march but your bulls got out the fence and bred the neighbors cows. Now you calve Jan to Feb and late March to april. Those are two seperate groups. They will be different ages when they hit different mineral and protien levels of the forage. The avg will be within each group not the whole group together. Unless you as a breeder do not seperate them when you turn in your reports. It definatly matters what wieghts you report. Thats how you show if one animal excelled than the others. Or if it one fell behind. Sure you could turn in false weights but if they are completely outrageous the genetics will keep them in line; respectivly. If an animal is from genetics that don't support the reports you won't see amazing results on your papers. If an animal is from genetics that support them than you will. If you turned in false reports over seven to ten years than you might have the genetics to support you false reports. Genreally; you wont just lie about weight though. It will soon show up in you buissness that you are dishonest and its hard to keep steady customers that way.

 

[dun]

EPDs are not based on the average. They are based on a figure that was determined a number of yerars ago. I think the Hereford association has refigured there base recently, but the others haven;t. If a the breed average BW EPD is -1.6, how much will the calf weigh?

 

[Sage]

Lets try to say this in a very simple form so everybody can get a grasp on it.

EPD - Expected PROGENY Difference
EBV - Expected breeding value - 1/2 of EPD

If bull A has WW of +42 and Bull B has WW of +20 EPD then a calf born from bull A "should" wean 22lb heavier than a calf born from bull B, having been bred to the same cow in the same environment. The problem here is it is very very hard (almost impossible)to have two calves born from the same cow in the exact same environment sired by different bulls.

There is an average EPD for each breed, can be found at their web sites or in the major stud catalogs. EPD's are great for comparing animals within the same breed as long as you have a goal in mind for the progeny. There is work being done with across breed EPD's (Simmital Assoc. mostly) but I'm not up to speed on this at all.

Universities and breed associations with people much smarter than me figure the EPD's so I cannot give you any reliable info there. If your wanting to know what a breeding will produce for an epd you can take the average of the parents and this will give you a reasonable estimate.