Dry aging question

[GANGGREEN]

I've already tried using the search option and didn't find the answer to my question. I'm aware that the basic rule of thumb is that hanging weight is roughly 60% of live and that packaged weight is roughly 60% of hanging. My question is, how much does dry aging effect those numbers? Is the 60/60 formula for beef that is butchered immediately? If so, how much would dry aging for one week impact your processed weight? For 10 days? 14? 21?

Just curious and thanks in advance for anyone that knows the answer.

 

[Bluestem]

Post deleted because of inaccurate information.

 

[3waycross]

All my training(by the meat experts @ Sysco Foods), said 1to 1.5% percent per day for dry age. However this was after the primal cuts were broke down and kept under very controlled conditions including bacteriostatic lights, humidity, and temperature controls.

What you might want to do is to see if your processor can hang the carcass for a just long enough for rigor to set in, and then break out the top sirloin(age for 30 to 35 days), ribeye(age for 21 days), strip loin age 21 to 28 days), filet mignon(no age) , and the top round( 21 days), and wet age them in cryovac. They will not shrink and also will not acquire the gamey taste that comes with dry aging. These times for aging are what I always recommend to the better steakhouses I deal with and they work very well.

The only thing you will accomplish with whole carcass aging is a loss of burger and other salvage cuts and probably not enough age on the steak cuts. Keep in mind I have one Landmark Steakhouse that ages top sirloins up to 60 days for maximum tenderness. Also keep in mind tenderness is the only thing you gain with aging. The effect on flavor, with dry aging can be negative.

Short answer if: if it is going to be a steak ot roast wet age it, If not cut it and get it in the freezer.

 

[GANGGREEN]

Wow, those are two vastly different answers and precisely why I asked the question. Now I have no clue how much loss to anticipate for dry aging and 3waycross is suggesting that you not dry age your beef. Seems like the vast majority of folks that butcher their own or have beef butchered suggest that you should dry age. Ah, the internet.....I've gotten so much wonderful information but I've also had situations like this where the answers just muddied the question even more.

Thanks for the responses though guys, I'm curious to hear some more opinions on this one.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

I always thought that "gamey" flavor (BEEF flavor is what I would call it) is something you wanted and was one of the reasons for hanging???

 

[3waycross]

Wow, those are two vastly different answers and precisely why I asked the question. Now I have no clue how much loss to anticipate for dry aging and 3waycross is suggesting that you not dry age your beef. Seems like the vast majority of folks that butcher their own or have beef butchered suggest that you should dry age. Ah, the internet.....I've gotten so much wonderful information but I've also had situations like this where the answers just muddied the question even more.

Thanks for the responses though guys, I'm curious to hear some more opinions on this one.

I'm not saying don't dry age. What I'm saying is I have laid out the accepted methods of aging beef by current industry standards for foodservice preparation.

However I am biased against true dry age which is not what happens at your local butcher. What you are talking about is whole carcass aging which is not an economically sound practice. Nor does it make the meat taste any better. It does however make it more tender. To me and many others true dry aged beef tastes gamey at best and rotten at worst. It will also never be as juicy because of the inherent loss of moisture associated with shrinkage from the aging process.

The way to look at the shrink should be: Wet age NONE: Dry age, split carcasses 1 to 1.5 per cent daily with the amount decreasing as the carcass forms a bark or crust. This crust or bark then has to be removed at processing ie. more lost weight.

Draw your own conclusions. There are advantages to both. However the only way I would age a carcass would be if I couldn't break out the better cuts and wet age them in cyrovac, and then process everything else the 2md or 3rd day.

Having said all that I still age my Elk in quarters dry, in this fashion. Ribs eat the first day, loins cut the 3rd or 4th day, shoulders cut within first week, and hind qrtrs up to 3 weeks age.

 

[3waycross]

I always thought that "gamey" flavor (BEEF flavor is what I would call it) is something you wanted and was one of the reasons for hanging???

Aging of any kind is controlled decomposition. The "gamey flavor" you are talking about is nothing but the beginnings of putrification. This doesn't happen with wet age becuse it is in an anerobic(without oxygen) environment. It will have a very pronounced smell upon opening the cyrovac however it dissapates quickly and smells pretty neutral after 15 or 20 minutes.

I'm not knocking your taste but I've seen the industry trending away from dry age every year for the 25 years I've been selling boxed beef. The reasons being Flavor and Yield.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

I think we have been training the consumer to bland fatty meat for 50 or 60 years (not that I don't like a nice fatty rib eye too!) but the "flavor" we are marketing (and to be fair "they" buy), it is bland. Now the fatty is out of fashion so we need tender, lean, and bland.

Not disagreeing with you, just my opinion of why it is happening. Probably easier to get to that mystical "consistency of product" with standards tending to bland over real beef flavor.

Nothing wrong with rot. Pass me some of that cheese and booze!

 

[3waycross]

I think we have been training the consumer to bland fatty meat for 50 or 60 years (not that I don't like a nice fatty rib eye too!) but the "flavor" we are marketing (and to be fair "they" buy), it is bland. Now the fatty is out of fashion so we need tender, lean, and bland.

Not disagreeing with you, just my opinion of why it is happening. Probably easier to get to that mystical "consistency of product" with standards tending to bland over real beef flavor.

Nothing wrong with rot. Pass me some of that cheese and booze!

Never said anything about fat, in fact the trend in foodservice and lately in retail is toward more marbling, not less. How else do you explain the popularity of CAB,1855,Sterling Silver, and other premimum beef programs which are all based on marbling as the first criteria. FAT tastes great period. However marbling and aging are two different and not similar issues relative to what the customer wants.

Most of us over 50 were raised in a world of more intense flavors than our children but I believe, we have never been more food savy as a nation, than we are right now. Eat what you want at home but know it is probably not what the market wants.

Trying to market something other than what america wants to eat sounds like another argument played out on this forum AD Nauseum regarding what the market wants to buy right now.

 

[Susie David]

We dry age our beef for ten days to two weeks depending on the size of the carcass and really don't worry about the shrinkage as we figure 35% aging and cutting loss.
We don't expect a standard as every animal is slightly different, some are just fatter than others and some will have a more pronounced beef flavor even when raised on the same pasture and feed.
Just my two bits worth...asked for or not
Alot of good posts on the subject, thanks for the info. Dmc

 

[Bluestem]

Wow, those are two vastly different answers and precisely why I asked the question. Now I have no clue how much loss to anticipate for dry aging and 3waycross is suggesting that you not dry age your beef. Seems like the vast majority of folks that butcher their own or have beef butchered suggest that you should dry age. Ah, the internet.....I've gotten so much wonderful information but I've also had situations like this where the answers just muddied the question even more.

Thanks for the responses though guys, I'm curious to hear some more opinions on this one.

Sorry I smoked up your answer. Double checked my numbers. They're accurate. My opinion, dry age. You won't notice the weight loss. The other way is the way its done in the packing plants, to save time and money.

 

[3waycross]

Wow, those are two vastly different answers and precisely why I asked the question. Now I have no clue how much loss to anticipate for dry aging and 3waycross is suggesting that you not dry age your beef. Seems like the vast majority of folks that butcher their own or have beef butchered suggest that you should dry age. Ah, the internet.....I've gotten so much wonderful information but I've also had situations like this where the answers just muddied the question even more.

Thanks for the responses though guys, I'm curious to hear some more opinions on this one.

Sorry I smoked up your answer. Double checked my numbers. They're accurate. My opinion, dry age. You won't notice the weight loss. The other
way is the way its done in the packing plants, to save time and money.

Not trying to start a fight here BUT, I just spent 30 minutes on the phone with one of my competitors whose family has been custom killing and cutting beef for over 50 years. He kills anywhere from 10 to 15 cows and steers a week and here is what he had to say: Unless you are one of the major packers with humidy controlled coolers the amount of shrink is 5 to 6 percent the first 10 to 14 days, after that it slows down but does not stop. Going out to 21 days you will approach 12 to 14 percent. plus generate a lot of trim because of the BARK that forms on the meat which has to be removed in order to cut it.

If those number don't sound like a lot to you, say you are in the business of selling meat direct to the end user, could you take a 10 to 14 percent shrink on every carcass and stay in business very long. Besides if the shrink didn't kill you the extra trim would.

If we are talking meat slaughtered at home for home consumption do it any way you want but I know my numbers are correct.

One last point here is this. What is actually being argued here is not what is known in the beef industry as DRY AGE. It is actually hanging age or whole carcass age. Contempory dry age is done in smaller facilities on racks on primal cuts such as top butts, strips and ribeyes. For what it's worth in almost every case they have to cut or scrape off the mold before it is cut into steaks, there are also some issues regarding aerobic and anerobic bacteria that come into play here that I won't go into but they are revelant to what is being served today as DRY AGE steaks, and why in my opinion they taste and smell so bad. Not at all like Bluestem describes what he likes.

 

[js2743]

i had a beef two years ago and the processing place hangs them 14 days. and my opinion is its the worst tasting stuff i ever tried to eat. we ate about all of it just to keep from wasting but never again will i do that. once its chilled out good it will be cut asap.

 

[Bluestem]

Wow, those are two vastly different answers and precisely why I asked the question. Now I have no clue how much loss to anticipate for dry aging and 3waycross is suggesting that you not dry age your beef. Seems like the vast majority of folks that butcher their own or have beef butchered suggest that you should dry age. Ah, the internet.....I've gotten so much wonderful information but I've also had situations like this where the answers just muddied the question even more.

Thanks for the responses though guys, I'm curious to hear some more opinions on this one.

Sorry I smoked up your answer. Double checked my numbers. They're accurate. My opinion, dry age. You won't notice the weight loss. The other
way is the way its done in the packing plants, to save time and money.

Not trying to start a fight here BUT, I just spent 30 minutes on the phone with one of my competitors whose family has been custom killing and cutting beef for over 50 years. He kills anywhere from 10 to 15 cows and steers a week and here is what he had to say: Unless you are one of the major packers with humidy controlled coolers the amount of shrink is 5 to 6 percent the first 10 to 14 days, after that it slows down but does not stop. Going out to 21 days you will approach 12 to 14 percent. plus generate a lot of trim because of the BARK that forms on the meat which has to be removed in order to cut it.

If those number don't sound like a lot to you, say you are in the business of selling meat direct to the end user, could you take a 10 to 14 percent shrink on every carcass and stay in business very long. Besides if the shrink didn't kill you the extra trim would.

If we are talking meat slaughtered at home for home consumption do it any way you want but I know my numbers are correct.

One last point here is this. What is actually being argued here is not what is known in the beef industry as DRY AGE. It is actually hanging age or whole carcass age. Contempory dry age is done in smaller facilities on racks on primal cuts such as top butts, strips and ribeyes. For what it's worth in almost every case they have to cut or scrape off the mold before it is cut into steaks, there are also some issues regarding aerobic and anerobic bacteria that come into play here that I won't go into but they are revelant to what is being served today as DRY AGE steaks, and why in my opinion they taste and smell so bad. Not at all like Bluestem describes what he likes.

3waycross- Did more research and your numbers are more accurate than mine.
Here's a good site.
http://www.grillmeats.com/dry_aging_beef.htm You have to get by the first paragraph of advertising.
And your right, we come from different sides of the table. I'm not concerned with hanging weight loss, as I sell direct to the consumer. Tastes have slowly changed in the last 45 years (with the advent of vacuum packaging) and I doubt that I'll ever catch up.

 

[GANGGREEN]

Thanks for all the information, it's been quite interesting and educational.

 

[3waycross]

Thanks for all the information, it's been quite interesting and educational.

Your welcome! Good Luck!

 

[SCRUBS620]

I do not have experience with aging beef but doing it in cryovac bags is not necessarily safer. Lots of bacteria are anaerobic (require an oxygen depleted environment to live). Some of the nastiest ones are anaerobic; botulism for example. If this was not done correctly by someone who knows what they are doing bacteria can and will multiply, especially in a wet, protein rich, and salt free environment like that of a cryovac bag. Like I said I dont have any experience with aging meat and I am sure the big facilities have control over the process to keep problems to a minimum. My concern is if you had a processor "try" this on your meat or you "tried" it yourself. That being said I have had good luck with putting the thawed steaks in a container with holes in it in the refrigerator (sometimes on a bed of dried onions and herbs)for about 48 hours before I cook them. I dont know if this is aging them but it gets rid of the excess moisture. Yes, too much moisture is a bad thing when cooking a steak. Too much moisture causes the steak to steam rather than brown and it causes a bloody taste that I hate.

 

[3waycross]

I do not have experience with aging beef but doing it in cryovac bags is not necessarily safer. Lots of bacteria are anaerobic (require an oxygen depleted environment to live). Some of the nastiest ones are anaerobic; botulism for example. If this was not done correctly by someone who knows what they are doing bacteria can and will multiply, especially in a wet, protein rich, and salt free environment like that of a cryovac bag. Like I said I dont have any experience with aging meat and I am sure the big facilities have control over the process to keep problems to a minimum. My concern is if you had a processor "try" this on your meat or you "tried" it yourself. That being said I have had good luck with putting the thawed steaks in a container with holes in it in the refrigerator (sometimes on a bed of dried onions and herbs)for about 48 hours before I cook them. I dont know if this is aging them but it gets rid of the excess moisture. Yes, too much moisture is a bad thing when cooking a steak. Too much moisture causes the steak to steam rather than brown and it causes a bloody taste that I hate.

If you don't have any experience aging meat in cryovac why would you throw around words like botulism, which only serves to scare people. Why not KNOW what happens in that cyrovac before you start throwing around words that scare the heck out of prople.

A packer regardless of size either does or does not have the facilities to do cyrovac, it's not a matter of experimentation on their part. Remember they are inspected by the USDA or they are outlaws. If you or anybody else is taking their meat to an outlaw packer you get what you paid for a cheap deal, and no recourse if things go wrong.

I will tell you for an absolute certantity that as long as the integrity of the cryovac bag is not compromized (leaking) the meat is good for a very long time. I have one customer who routinely ages top sirloins for up to 60 days in the cryo, and this is a landmark steakhouse that has been in business for 50 years. The same steakhouse cooks their steaks on a flat-top grill not even a charbroiler and No they don't come out steamed from excess moisture.

Having said all that, the one piece of meat I don't feel really good about aging in cyrovac is a shortloin(where t-bones come from). Whenever a bone is cut it seems to open the door for less than good things to happen.

Keep in mind I's not trying to sound like a know it all here but I have sold over a millions pounds of beef in the last 20 yrs and had a ton of training in the handling of further processed primal cuts. Virutally all of which are packed in cyrovac. For the record I have never had a restuarant tell me they were having problems with steaks STEAMING because they were too moist.
Also if you do have a leaker, you will know it pretty quick when you open that bag.

Part of the training we give our customers is how to handle cryovaced meat after it is received, which includes checking for pinholes regularly if they are doing further aging at their facility. Which by the way consists of simply keeping the meat under 35degrees for the chosen amount of time , and protecting the integrity of the cyrovac.

Hopefully this has been helpful without sounding patronizing, I just don't think it is necessary to scare people for no reason.

 

[3waycross]

I do not have experience with aging beef but doing it in cryovac bags is not necessarily safer. Lots of bacteria are anaerobic (require an oxygen depleted environment to live). Some of the nastiest ones are anaerobic; botulism for example. If this was not done correctly by someone who knows what they are doing bacteria can and will multiply, especially in a wet, protein rich, and salt free environment like that of a cryovac bag. Like I said I dont have any experience with aging meat and I am sure the big facilities have control over the process to keep problems to a minimum. My concern is if you had a processor "try" this on your meat or you "tried" it yourself. That being said I have had good luck with putting the thawed steaks in a container with holes in it in the refrigerator (sometimes on a bed of dried onions and herbs)for about 48 hours before I cook them. I dont know if this is aging them but it gets rid of the excess moisture. Yes, too much moisture is a bad thing when cooking a steak. Too much moisture causes the steak to steam rather than brown and it causes a bloody taste that I hate.

I'm not trying to pick on you but, I just reread your ideas on how to handle and cook a steak . I find them to be a little bizzare to say the least. Let me offer a couple of suggestions;

First and foremost, if you are dealing with frozen steaks, hopefully they were frozen in a blast freezer, which freezes them as quickly as possible. Assuming that they were, the next thing you should do is thaw the steak in the fridge SLOWLY over a period of a couple days. If you don't you will get a lot of cell wall rupture and as a result a lot of purge(blood).

Second, after the meat is thawed slowly, take a paper towel and pat it dry. Then apply either a dry rub,sea salt and freshly ground pepper works as well as anything, or a marinade for no more than a couple hours.

Third, get the grill , gas or charcoal, as hot as possible and grill your steak UNCOVERED for as long as you want. If you are used to cooking steaks in a skillet get it hot and don't overcrowd the meat. That is the only thing I know of that causes it to steam rather than fry.

A little trick to remember when dealing with steaks at home. For example is if you are cutting your own or are buying in bulk. Try laying them out on sheet pans and freezing them as quickly as possible. Then if you have a seal a meal cyrovac them frozen and they will last a lot longer in the freezer. Also if you do this don't handle them a lot as it eventually punctures the plastic. Even if you don't have the seal a meal this works because they freeze quickly and flat, then you can wrap them in saran wrap. Also try to use beef in 6 months or less, it can develop an off flavor after that. Pork will for sure as the fat gets rancid rather quickly even if frozen.

Hope this helps.

 

[SCRUBS620]

I was just cautioning him to be careful about who did the aging process. I am not saying that the process in inherently bad or that most facilities do not perform it correctly. Like I said I dont have experience aging beef but working with and studying bacteria is part of my job. I did not mean to imply that botulism would result. It just happened to be the first anaerobic bacteria that popped into my head that I thought he might recognize, but trust me there is a big list and some will grow nicely in the cold, protein rich environment such as that of a cryovac bag. My point was, putting something in cryovac does not inhibit all bacteria. The bacteria can come from anywhere and they can persist and grow in even near freezing temperatures. A butcher with dirty hands, an unclean surface, etc. I was not trying to step on your toes but being a little cautious is never a bad thing. Are you telling me that with all your experience with cryovac aging that you have never had a bad batch? Are they tested for contamination at any point?

As far as cooking a steak, thanks for the input but I already make a mean steak. It does seem that you agree with getting rid of some of the extra moisture though. Even with thawing them slowly in the refrigerator (which I do) I still think there is too much moisture in them. The excess moisture sizzles out and causes steam which prevents the steak from searing properly before the inside is overly done (medium is pushing overdone in my book). The onions and dried herbs absorb this while giving their flavor to the steak. May seem different but it works great for me. Works great on a roast that you want to leave medium rare also (like a rib roast, Oh Yeah!!).