Bez>
Well-known member
Dysentry.
Have you asked a veterinarian for an opinion?
Bez>
Have you asked a veterinarian for an opinion?
Bez>
Diarrhea - Cow
- Thread starter Bez>
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hillsdown
Well-known member
Angus/Brangus":1qqww2hi said:
Verbazen drench is that a ph equalizer like Kaopectate?I would be concerned about Johne's.Is her fecal matter like a pea soup concentration?She is the perfect age to be in the final stages of Johne's.Get a vet out to take a look and do an Elisa Blood test.If it is Johne's and I hope it's not there is no cure.It is a slow death for the animal and it eventually poops itself to death.Get a vet out ASAP Johne's is highly contagious especially to calves under one year that have been exposed to her waste.Seperate the two animals immediately and the calf that is on her has a greater than 50% chance of having it.I know this is not what you want to hear but any exposed animals especially calves of would sell for slaughter this year.You do not want this in your herd.If she does have Johne's and you plan to sell stock for breeding purposes you should disclose that your animals have been exposed to the disease.Good luck but my first inclination was to think Johne's.Every thing is the perfect scenario age of cow,symptoms and the onset after calving.
Cowdirt
Well-known member
hillsdown":25y21r75 said:
Hillsdown, my first thought was Johne's also. Very well could be. I would get a vet to diagnose her problem as soon as possible.
Bez>
Well-known member
cowboyup216":1m92uzdp said:
From the sound of it this is not protein or grass runs.
Any signs of blood?
Personally I think you would be doing a disservice to ship this one in the shape you are talking about.
Bez>
hillsdown
Well-known member
Angus/Brangus":1b21m60t said:
Blood tests will not always show positive on live animals unless you test them every 3-6 months for a year; only a sample of the tissue close to the head or maybe it's the brain will give you accurate results and the animal has to be dead for that.And I am telling you all things sound like Johne's even the manure caking on the tail.I know this is not sounding good but let us know when your Vet takes a look but it's really important that you keep her away from all your other livestock just in case.
Good Luck; having a Johne's cow in your herd really sucks I don't know how else to put it but it really kicks the crap out of you because in one second all that you work for has been sacrificed.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Age, weight loss, diarhea, good appetite ARE all signs of Johnes. As said, the ONE test on a cow cannot confirm NEGATIVE for Johnes.
But, if your vet feels it is Liver Flukes, hopefully that's what it is this time. And as far as QUICKLY isolating her - I wouldn't worry about that. IF she has Johnes, she possibly has been shedding all her life. The diarhea is a symptom - not the only time she is shedding.
But, if your vet feels it is Liver Flukes, hopefully that's what it is this time. And as far as QUICKLY isolating her - I wouldn't worry about that. IF she has Johnes, she possibly has been shedding all her life. The diarhea is a symptom - not the only time she is shedding.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
"IF" she has Johnes, she got it when she was born (or between birth and about 6 months of age). So, if she was born on your place, "most likely" her dam had it.
In a beef herd, MOST cattle get it from their dam - thru colostrum & thru the manure on her teats.
If you get colostrum from a local dairy, the calf can get it from that. I NEVER use dairy colostrum any more - getting way to prominent in the dairies.
The best thing to do is collect a fecal sample from all your 2 yrs & older cattle & have it tested. This should be done a few times. Each testing takes months.
In a beef herd, MOST cattle get it from their dam - thru colostrum & thru the manure on her teats.
If you get colostrum from a local dairy, the calf can get it from that. I NEVER use dairy colostrum any more - getting way to prominent in the dairies.
The best thing to do is collect a fecal sample from all your 2 yrs & older cattle & have it tested. This should be done a few times. Each testing takes months.
bigbull338
Well-known member
johns can be transferred from the cow to her calf at birth.if the cow is johns positive an the newborn sucks.itll most likely be infected from moms milk.that is why you never let a calf suck a johns infected cow.an always keep clostrum from non infected cows frozen.you can give her a shot to clear dysentry up.go to the vet an see what he says.Jeanne - Simme Valley":2drv353d said:
I had a cow with similar symptons years ago. She was never off feed or fevered. Gave her every type of drug, dewormer, and vitamin shot I could think of. Finally put some Havaspan? boluses (sulfamethazine) down her throat. They are big boluses, need a big bolus gun. She had diarhea for at least a month. Within 12 hours she was starting to firm up. Within 24 hours her manure was back to normal and she was fine. Kept her for many more years and she never did have any more problems.Probably some type of a stomach virus that the sulfamethazine pills killed.
hillsdown
Well-known member
Well that doesn't sound good but what kind of Vets do you have there.They seem like a bunch of crackers to me.I can't believe that they would not even want to test or have a look;and that 60 day thing for results is a bunch of Bull Sh*t.I know from unfortuanate experience you get live sample blood tests back within 3-5 days and dead animal samples in 3 days or less.Now you don't even know what is in your herd.I really wouldn't ship her if she is that thin you don't want the animal to be condemned and give yourself a bad name at the stock yards.And definately don't keep her most recent calf as breeding stock just get rid of it as soon as you can.Sorry that's all I can say I really hope she improves and it is not Johne's but denile aint a good thing.
Good Luck and make sure if you are keeping her to see what happens instead of having her put down that you keep her and her manure separate from the rest of your herd especially new calves because this is the most contagious stage and she is also full of other things because of her weakened immune system like Ecoli.It won't effect her as she is a host now but she could be full of a whole lot ugliness just waiting to attack your young healthy calves.I just can't believe your Vet is so nonchalant about the fact that you may have Johne's in your herd .What is wrong with that? Like how screw ball thinking is that.
Good Luck and make sure if you are keeping her to see what happens instead of having her put down that you keep her and her manure separate from the rest of your herd especially new calves because this is the most contagious stage and she is also full of other things because of her weakened immune system like Ecoli.It won't effect her as she is a host now but she could be full of a whole lot ugliness just waiting to attack your young healthy calves.I just can't believe your Vet is so nonchalant about the fact that you may have Johne's in your herd .What is wrong with that? Like how screw ball thinking is that.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
As far as I know, the blood test is a quick response - BUT - it is NOT VERY ACCURATE. The fecal test is the most reliable - with false negatives though - and does take months.
There is no reason for the vet to be an alarmist - Johnes is getting extremely populated in the herds. There is no reason to PANIC. She has been spreading the disease most of her life (if she has it). Panic now does not help. Shipping her (for slaughter) & her offspring, Testing & practicing clean management is what would need to be done.
Sorry to burst your hopeful "bubble", but Johnes cattle can get the squirts lasting for a long time - than just stop - clear up & act just as healthy as she was prior to the diarhea. The diarhea shows up in "stress" times. After calvings is STRESS.
There is no reason for the vet to be an alarmist - Johnes is getting extremely populated in the herds. There is no reason to PANIC. She has been spreading the disease most of her life (if she has it). Panic now does not help. Shipping her (for slaughter) & her offspring, Testing & practicing clean management is what would need to be done.
Sorry to burst your hopeful "bubble", but Johnes cattle can get the squirts lasting for a long time - than just stop - clear up & act just as healthy as she was prior to the diarhea. The diarhea shows up in "stress" times. After calvings is STRESS.
hillsdown
Well-known member
If it is Johne's then she came from a herd that had been exposed because all the research that has been done says it is most contagious in gestation;through the milk, or in the shedding phase.You have done nothing wrong and in fact sound very responsible to help control Johne's.The only thing that really kills manure infected by Johne's is heat so if you can get your area cleaned out and let the summer heat get to it then it should probably be good for spreading on your feilds.I am really very sorry this happened to you.I wish more people would realize just how devistating Johne's is to a herd and unless you have gone through it you haven't got a clue.By the responses you have gotten through this thread either they have no clue about the effects of the disease or ignore it and sell their animals anyways.I am probably going to get blasted by this but I really don't give a crap.I know how you feel it's like someone duped you and sold you crap animals just for a buck.Well let's hope she didn't cost you the amount of dollars that it cost me.
Good Luck with everything. Now that you have seen what can happen to a healthy cow in a matter of months you can really get the word out to other people that Johne's is here in beef as well as in dairy and is more debilatating to our herds than BSE at least BSE as far as the research tells us is not contagious ;and it is really hard to tell when you buy animals if the herd has been exposed to Johne's unless the seller discloses it.
Good Luck with everything. Now that you have seen what can happen to a healthy cow in a matter of months you can really get the word out to other people that Johne's is here in beef as well as in dairy and is more debilatating to our herds than BSE at least BSE as far as the research tells us is not contagious ;and it is really hard to tell when you buy animals if the herd has been exposed to Johne's unless the seller discloses it.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
hillsdown
Very well said. If people even know what the disease is - they think it's a dairy problem. It is VERY alive in the beef industry. So far testing isn't the best, but it's the best we've got. I've had my herd tested several times, for my own benefit plus for sales.
As far as my comment about "don't panic" wasn't to minimize the severity of the problem, but he's got it - and has had it for many years without knowing. Now he knows (or thinks!) and he's dealing with it logically.
Very well said. If people even know what the disease is - they think it's a dairy problem. It is VERY alive in the beef industry. So far testing isn't the best, but it's the best we've got. I've had my herd tested several times, for my own benefit plus for sales.
As far as my comment about "don't panic" wasn't to minimize the severity of the problem, but he's got it - and has had it for many years without knowing. Now he knows (or thinks!) and he's dealing with it logically.
bigbull338
Well-known member
the 1st thing you need todo is have your cows tested for johns.then cull all positive cows.an test your herd yearly.an test all new cows coming into your herd.its a hard an expensive pill to swallow.when you have to cull that hard.Angus/Brangus":3kcnvs1g said:
I got this info. off of http://www.infovets.com it is a pay site but I have found it to be very useful. Hope it helps.
Introduction: Johnes disease, pronounced YO-knees (or paratuberculosis), is a chronic, bacterial disease of the intestinal tract in cattle and other animals, that is usually fatal. Johnes disease occurs in a large variety of animals and is widely distributed across all regions of the United States. Johnes disease has been reported in cattle, sheep, goats, deer, antelope and llamas, but is most commonly seen in dairy cattle. This disease is difficult to identify in its early stages and has no known cure.
Causative Agent: Johnes disease is caused by a bacteria called Mycobacterium paratuberculosis. This organism grows very slowly, causes a gradually worsening condition, and is highly resistant to the infected animal's immune defenses. Infected animals harbor the organism for years before they develop clinical signs or test positive for the disease.
Sources of Infection: The disease typically enters a herd when an infected, but healthy looking animal, is brought into a healthy herd. The infection then spreads to non-infected animals when they ingest manure from another infected cow. The severe diarrhea often associated with Johnes disease is the most common cause of infection from animal to animal. Once outside the animal, the bacteria are quite hardy, and may live for months in water, feed, and manure. In the later stages of infection, the bacteria is found in the milk of infected animals. Young animals can become infected by drinking milk from infected cows. Calves younger than 6 months old are most vulnerable to infection. Research also suggests that an infected mother can pass the disease to the fetus during pregnancy.
Clinical Signs: Clinical signs rarely appear until cattle are 2-3 years of age or older. Chronic diarrhea and weight loss are typical of the disease.
Generally, only one or two animals in a herd have clinical signs. Infected cattle frequently eat well and look bright, but appear unthrifty. They generally do not have a fever.
Usually symptoms first appear following calving, a severe stress, or under conditions of poor management.
The signs of Johnes disease can be confused with signs of several other diseases like coccidiosis, winter dysentery, and parasitism.
This disease develops so slowly, that by the time the owner becomes concerned, there may be a widespread problem within the herd.
Diagnosis: An excellent way of diagnosing Johnes disease is to detect the organism that causes the infection in the manure of the animal. There are several tests available and a veterinarian can help collect samples for a Johnes disease fecal culture. These tests are very accurate, but take up to 16 weeks to get a definitive answer.
Recently, tests have become available that are able to detect (identify) infected herds using a pooled fecal sample (either directly from a group of cows or from a manure storage area). These tests are PCR based and available in 3-4 days.
There are several different blood tests for Johnes disease. The ELISA test is considered most accurate and best standardized. This test is fast, simple, and able to detect animals that are infected before they show clinical signs. The ELISA test requires blood samples be collected in both red and purple topped tubes. At this time, a positive ELISA test alone is not considered sufficient for the diagnosis of Johnes disease; a fecal culture should also be performed. Recent studies indicate that Johnes disease can also be detected in a milk sample.
Treatment: There is no effective treatment for Johnes disease and attempts at treatment are not warranted. All positive animals should be culled.
Prevention: Johnes disease can be controlled and even eliminated from infected herds, but it takes a thorough understanding of the disease by animal owners, consultation with a veterinarian, and requires the use of available diagnostic tests. The basics of control are simple; new infections must be prevented and animals with the infection must be identified and removed from the herd.
Prevention is based on maintaining a closed herd. Do not buy or lease livestock unless they are known to come from clean herds.
Management changes that prevent transmission to non-infected cattle are also necessary. Specific actions include the following:
Identify and eliminate known infected animals.
Be aware that Johnes disease may be transmitted from an infected pregnant cow to the fetus during pregnancy.
Calve cows in a clean environment.
Use only colostrum and/or milk from non-infected cows.
Be aware of and maintain good sanitation practices.
Do not graze young cattle on pasture used by adults.
Consider artificial insemination to minimize disease spread.
Supply water only from clean tanks, and fence off ponds.
Do not spread manure on pastures used for grazing.
Buy livestock only from herds known to be free of Johnes disease.
Remove calves from the herd when they are known to be from infected cows.
Call the veterinarian early if diarrhea is persistent. Rule out other diseases and discuss available diagnostic tests.
Introduction: Johnes disease, pronounced YO-knees (or paratuberculosis), is a chronic, bacterial disease of the intestinal tract in cattle and other animals, that is usually fatal. Johnes disease occurs in a large variety of animals and is widely distributed across all regions of the United States. Johnes disease has been reported in cattle, sheep, goats, deer, antelope and llamas, but is most commonly seen in dairy cattle. This disease is difficult to identify in its early stages and has no known cure.
Causative Agent: Johnes disease is caused by a bacteria called Mycobacterium paratuberculosis. This organism grows very slowly, causes a gradually worsening condition, and is highly resistant to the infected animal's immune defenses. Infected animals harbor the organism for years before they develop clinical signs or test positive for the disease.
Sources of Infection: The disease typically enters a herd when an infected, but healthy looking animal, is brought into a healthy herd. The infection then spreads to non-infected animals when they ingest manure from another infected cow. The severe diarrhea often associated with Johnes disease is the most common cause of infection from animal to animal. Once outside the animal, the bacteria are quite hardy, and may live for months in water, feed, and manure. In the later stages of infection, the bacteria is found in the milk of infected animals. Young animals can become infected by drinking milk from infected cows. Calves younger than 6 months old are most vulnerable to infection. Research also suggests that an infected mother can pass the disease to the fetus during pregnancy.
Clinical Signs: Clinical signs rarely appear until cattle are 2-3 years of age or older. Chronic diarrhea and weight loss are typical of the disease.
Generally, only one or two animals in a herd have clinical signs. Infected cattle frequently eat well and look bright, but appear unthrifty. They generally do not have a fever.
Usually symptoms first appear following calving, a severe stress, or under conditions of poor management.
The signs of Johnes disease can be confused with signs of several other diseases like coccidiosis, winter dysentery, and parasitism.
This disease develops so slowly, that by the time the owner becomes concerned, there may be a widespread problem within the herd.
Diagnosis: An excellent way of diagnosing Johnes disease is to detect the organism that causes the infection in the manure of the animal. There are several tests available and a veterinarian can help collect samples for a Johnes disease fecal culture. These tests are very accurate, but take up to 16 weeks to get a definitive answer.
Recently, tests have become available that are able to detect (identify) infected herds using a pooled fecal sample (either directly from a group of cows or from a manure storage area). These tests are PCR based and available in 3-4 days.
There are several different blood tests for Johnes disease. The ELISA test is considered most accurate and best standardized. This test is fast, simple, and able to detect animals that are infected before they show clinical signs. The ELISA test requires blood samples be collected in both red and purple topped tubes. At this time, a positive ELISA test alone is not considered sufficient for the diagnosis of Johnes disease; a fecal culture should also be performed. Recent studies indicate that Johnes disease can also be detected in a milk sample.
Treatment: There is no effective treatment for Johnes disease and attempts at treatment are not warranted. All positive animals should be culled.
Prevention: Johnes disease can be controlled and even eliminated from infected herds, but it takes a thorough understanding of the disease by animal owners, consultation with a veterinarian, and requires the use of available diagnostic tests. The basics of control are simple; new infections must be prevented and animals with the infection must be identified and removed from the herd.
Prevention is based on maintaining a closed herd. Do not buy or lease livestock unless they are known to come from clean herds.
Management changes that prevent transmission to non-infected cattle are also necessary. Specific actions include the following:
Identify and eliminate known infected animals.
Be aware that Johnes disease may be transmitted from an infected pregnant cow to the fetus during pregnancy.
Calve cows in a clean environment.
Use only colostrum and/or milk from non-infected cows.
Be aware of and maintain good sanitation practices.
Do not graze young cattle on pasture used by adults.
Consider artificial insemination to minimize disease spread.
Supply water only from clean tanks, and fence off ponds.
Do not spread manure on pastures used for grazing.
Buy livestock only from herds known to be free of Johnes disease.
Remove calves from the herd when they are known to be from infected cows.
Call the veterinarian early if diarrhea is persistent. Rule out other diseases and discuss available diagnostic tests.
GMN
Well-known member
Isn't it possible that some are carriers also, that have it, but never test positive for it, and never show any active signs of the disease?
Honestly with a cow this thin, I'd just shoot her put her out of her misery, if taken to the sale barn, she will be condemned and it will only look bad on you.
GMN
Honestly with a cow this thin, I'd just shoot her put her out of her misery, if taken to the sale barn, she will be condemned and it will only look bad on you.
GMN
Angus/Brangus":r0qcust3 said:
Out here, the state got a grant to test all the cattle in the state, free to the farmers and ranchers. It's a voluntary program designed to help the cattle industry (esp the dairies) with locating Johnes cows and managing the disease. I know my vet was anticipating doing a lot of work with testing over the summer.
Angus/Brangus":1fcbh1c6 said:
The only thing I can think of as far as concrete strategies to keep it from spreading is to pull all newborn calves off the cows. One of the sources of infection is cows laying in infected manure, then the calf sucks and is subsequently infected. I know it's not practical, but it will prevent them from picking it up. Again, from what I've read about it, Johnes can live in the soil for at least a year, and it is resistant to all known methods of disinfecting. I'm so sorry you're having to go through all this.
Angus/Brangus":vtzf2pb9 said:
The only thing I can think of as far as concrete strategies to keep it from spreading is to pull all newborn calves off the cows. One of the sources of infection is cows laying in infected manure, then the calf sucks and is subsequently infected. I know it's not practical, but it will prevent them from picking it up. Again, from what I've read about it, Johnes can live in the soil for at least a year, and it is resistant to all known methods of disinfecting. I'm so sorry you're having to go through all this.
GMN
Well-known member
Angus/Brangus":1rduh8dy said:
Yes we also try everything before we have a cow to the render, my point is sometimes people take animals to the sale barn, that are in such bad shape, that get condemned in the sale ring, and you get a big fat zero, plus a mark on your reputation.
GMN
