Custom grazing

[alftn]

Grass aint no science,Yes it need fer. and lime from time to time but still aint science...The rain it gets how many cows that are on it...If you think every thing is the same it aint...You going to have to mow ( in west tn.) every once in a while get rid of brier and thistle or spot spray...And what about trees some of them will make it even when the cows eat at them....

 

[Sir Loin]

Frankie,
Re:

BTW, tell me more about those CAB cattle you own. Which packing plant is it that's going to pay you the CAB premium on the basis of ultrasound.

First I don't own these animal. I'm retired but I am the primary care giver of 3 farms (ranches) including 250 cows and their calves on them. I have little to do with the feed lot operation. My (job ?) is to produce calves for the feed lot.

Now as for the CAB thing, this is the first time we will be doing this so I have as many questions as you do.
But if for no other reason the one benefit I see for ultrasound is, we will know the meat grade before it is graded as hanging weight by a USDA inspector (who also uses ultrasound) and may be avoiding a rip off by the packer.

Who knows, they may not even grade out as CAB quality, but then we will at least know how to adjust the feed mixture.
So on the 18 when they come out that's when "religion and cattle" will come together.

Now if things go as I suspect, by 8AM on the 18 we will have 2 pens, with 47 1,000 lb steers in each and our trailers will be backed up to the loading ramps and all will go on the trailers as CAB.
So if you wouldn't mind, when you bend a knee at the end of 17, please remember me and my cattle.
SL

 

[VanC]

BTW, tell me more about those CAB cattle you own. Which packing plant is it that's going to pay you the CAB premium on the basis of ultrasound. That sounds like something I might be interested in passing on to our bull buyers. :roll:

I was wondering about that myself. Only thing I can think of is that maybe a person could get more for their calves if, through ultrasound, the buyer feels they have a good chance of passing CAB inspection. After all, EVERYONE knows that nothing becomes CAB until the animal is slaughtered and the carcass passes the test.

 

[Frankie]

Frankie,
Re:

BTW, tell me more about those CAB cattle you own. Which packing plant is it that's going to pay you the CAB premium on the basis of ultrasound.

First I don't own these animal. I'm retired but I am the primary care giver of 3 farms (ranches) including 250 cows and their calves on them. I have little to do with the feed lot operation. My (job ?) is to produce calves for the feed lot.

Now as for the CAB thing, this is the first time we will be doing this so I have as many questions as you do.
But if for no other reason the one benefit I see for ultrasound is, we will know the meat grade before it is graded as hanging weight by a USDA inspector (who also uses ultrasound) and may be avoiding a rip off by the packer.

Who knows, they may not even grade out as CAB quality, but then we will at least know how to adjust the feed mixture.
So on the 18 when they come out that's when "religion and cattle" will come together.

Now if things go as I suspect, by 8AM on the 18 we will have 2 pens, with 47 1,000 lb steers in each and our trailers will be backed up to the loading ramps and all will go on the trailers as CAB.
So if you wouldn't mind, when you bend a knee at the end of 17, please remember me and my cattle.
SL

No, they won't go on the trailer as CAB. No live animal gets a CAB certification from anyone. Why do you keep claiming they do?

Which packer has meat graders that use ultrasound?

You should also know that ultrasound isn't an exact science. Different equipment can give you a slightly different reading. And the people reading the ultrasound are giving their best opinion at that time.

 

[Sir Loin]

Alftn,
Re:

You going to have to mow ( in west tn.)

How true! And it should be done everywhere if you want healthy animals, a good weight gain and quality meat.
But you forgot sage grass and butter cups.
Don't you have those?
If you let sage grass and/or butter cups go, you will have no grass.
If you don't mow your pastures what you will have is the prettiest crop of weed no cow is going to eat and a pasture that's nothing but a prescription for pinkeye.

And that is exactly what I say in every pic I saw while researching this!

Damnn, my fingers still tired from hitting the back button all night!!

 

[MikeC]

Frankie wrote: You should also know that ultrasound isn't an exact science. Different equipment can give you a slightly different reading. And the people reading the ultrasound are giving their best opinion at that time.

Human beef grading isn't an exact science either. These guys get an average of 15 seconds to grade a carcass. Errors can be as high as 20%. Average errors are 7.3%. THIS is what is an OPINION!

There are only a few flecks of fat difference between select and choice. Can graders get it right 100%?

Errors in ultrasound have been tested as low as 1%.

A field ultrasound tech is focusing on one objective......to get a good clear picture for the lab to interpret. That is all.

You must be using an antiquated lab because the one I use is not subject to human error. The software interprets the pictures. There is no "Opinion".

 

[dun]

Dun,
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but where does it say that. I must have missed that part. No where did I even see mowing even mentioned.
Please quote your source, complete with URL.

Dun,
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but where does it say that. I must have missed that part.
Please quote your source, complete with URL.
Thanks
SL

If you mow just once we have the expense of a tractor and a mower which costs about 10 times what a scale costs.

and the only major equipment absolutely necessary to have is a scale.

Now that's a flat out lie if you mow at all!
So not we are back to "truth in advertising" issues.
More and more it's beginning to look like we are dealing with another chicken choker like Salatan.

Thanks
SL

The URL is called having been doing it long enough to know that it works and that Ma Nature will throw a curve.
In another post you asked about butter cups. We have very few buttercups in the pastures basicly because the grass has grown well enough to keep them pretty limited. If we had bare dirt we'ld have butter cups, if we had a lot of weeds, we'ld have more buttercups because of the bare ground around the weeds that have died.
You're happy with the way you're doing things, that's just dandy. Every place is different, some of our pastures have parts that are different from others. Each of them is managed a bit different.
Part of the reason we have to clip seed heads is because we maintaine alow stocking rate. Too many droughts have educated me to the simple fact that by the time you realize you have a problem, prices are going to have dropped enough that you'll take a bath trying to sell cows. We rent out a pastue or two to the vet for his cows when his pasture is gone so he doesn;t have to drylot them for the couple of months before he fall calves.
Since you don;t believe the people that are doing it, why not give it a shot on 100 acres or so and see how well it works?

dun

 

[Sir Loin]

Frankie,
Re:

No, they won't go on the trailer as CAB. No live animal gets a CAB certification from anyone. Why do you keep claiming they do?

You are correct. I should have said CAB quality.

Re:

Which packer has meat graders that use ultrasound?

I don't know, but I did see a USDA thing on TV and their claim to fame was they were now using ultrasound for grading.

See: http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2003/030401.htm for more on this story.

In the doctor's office, obstetricians use ultrasound machines to check on the health of a fetus. On the farm, researchers are using the same device to determine which cattle will produce lean, tasty steaks.
Scientists from the Agricultural Research Service and Iowa State University have found that scanning live cattle with ultrasound can determine their fat and marbling qualities just as well as measurements taken on the carcass. The technology is used most often on Angus cattle, but ultrasound can be used on all breeds.

 

[Sir Loin]

Dun,
RE:

why not give it a shot on 100 acres or so and see how well it works?

Two reasons.
1, I never buy a pig in a poke and 2, I never fix it if it isn't broken. We'll know if it's broken on the 18.
I have always done, and still do, some pasture rotation,
I mow as needed and I produce high growth and quality calves. My cows and calves roam freely and are under no stress from crowding.
Now give me your best reason why I should change.
To run more cows? I can do that now, but I would need more hay for draughts and winter, or sell off some cows with every drought and every winter, just like Managed Intensive Grazing tells you you must do if you use their system.
No thanks! Well buy feeders if I can't keep the feed lots full.
And we do.
Last year we bought 150 of the wildest damm calves I've ever seen. And their still that way.

Nope, you got to better then that before I will buy into this pie in the sky program.
I still say there is federal grant money behind this! And most likely envirormental wackos.

SL

 

[IluvABbeef]

As for the personal attacks thing...glad your such a big boy an' can look after yourself, but treating folks like they're dumba$$es an' making them feel like crap, even if you didn't intend on doing so, ain't gonna get you nowhere. BTW, I didn't really appretiate that at all, reason why I replied to you, sirloin, the way I did.

How's your computer battery doing?

Oh it's still going strong. I just had to leave b/c I had a bunch of work to do, better off doing that than sitting here "arguing" on this thread... :roll:

 

[IluvABbeef]

that leaves less than 2 acres per paddock.

You are exactly correct. And there is 43,560 SF in an acre. You do the math while I tell you this.
It's impossible. Their feet will destroy most of the grass before they can even get to eat it. And in rainy weather she better feed them.
Now how many SF per animal did you get?

200 steers on 3/4 of a quarter section

That's ridicules. The stress factor alone will kill them if they don't starve to death.

I suggest you tell this lady she needs to take her medication or get off the crack!
SL

PS Hope you didn't pay to hear this bullsh--!

Sir Loin, the stuff I bolded was what kinda tipped me off. As well as the fact that you COMPLETELY disregarded my apology about making that stupid mistake of 3/4 of a quater section which was supposed to be 3 quater sections.

And I apologize also for what sounded like a personal attack to you.

Anyways, back to the subject....

 

[IluvABbeef]

Okay, here's the thing.

First of all, the number of pastures that she has is 66 pastures over around 480 acres. She rotates 200 head of stockers (or feeders, whichever you want to call them), weighing an average of 625 lbs each at the beginning of the grazing period. She rotates them each day, and there apparently is no worry of stress or overcrowding, because, now that she has 66 pastures over 480 acres, she has more than 2 acres per pasture, more like an average of 6 acres per pasture.

Now, the height of the forages when she puts them out is a big thing, more so because she knows that the higher quality forage is in the vegetative parts of the grass (she also grows Cicer Milkvetch in her pastures, a long with Timothy and a few other species commonly grown in her part of Alberta).

From what she has shown us and what she has studied in her career (FYI: she was a student at the U of A a number of years ago), the stockers gain more (i.e. thier % effeciency, as somebody previously said a page or two back) because of bite size. I know, your gonna think it's crazy, but it's true. Cattle have a bigger bite size when they're put out on fresh, high quality grass. This is because the cattle don't have to spend time choosing, or looking for where thier next bite is gonna be. Thus choice will be quick, and bites will be big. SO, that means bigger bite size means bigger gain, and through intensive/rotational grazing like the method that the guest lecturer told us about, if you put stockers out on fresh pasture more often, technically they'll put on more: yeah, fattening them up like a bunch of sardines. :lol:

The cleanup that she does is to put some cows on a couple days later clean up the lower quality (more stemmy) material. Since obviously beef cows have a lower nutritional-intake requirement than stockers do. BUT, she doesn't graze down to the ground (overgrazing), so the grass will shoot back up again after a 20-30 (sometimes 40 if rain is scarce) day rest period. (Rest period time depends on the time of season, but I'm sure you know that already.)

Now, anymore questions?

 

[Sir Loin]

Karin,

What I did was read the thread down to bigbulls post @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:31 am, and went to my word program to type a response but I didn't finished it, as I got called away.
When I got back I finished typing it and then posted it @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:10 pm.

When I got back, unfortunately I didn't check for any new posts before I posted mine which then made it after you had posted your correction @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:06 pm.
As for your error, I would never trip someone's trigger over something so trivial.

No runs, no hits, no errors and I'm sorry for any inconvenience or discomfort I may have caused you.
Have a nice day
SL

 

[IluvABbeef]

Karin,

What I did was read the thread down to bigbulls post @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:31 am, and went to my word program to type a response but I didn't finished it, as I got called away.
When I got back I finished typing it and then posted it @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 10:10 pm.

When I got back, unfortunately I didn't check for any new posts before I posted mine which then made it after you had posted your correction @ Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:06 pm.
As for your error, I would never trip someone's trigger over something so trivial.

No runs, no hits, no errors and I'm sorry for any inconvenience or discomfort I may have caused you.
Have a nice day
SL

Apology accepted. You have a good one too!

 

[Sir Loin]

Kerin,
Re:
Yes, just as soon as I stop laughing my XXX off!

Can you get this lady to come on here and defend herself because I would hate to chew all around her XXXuntil it falls out without her being here to defend herself?
What's her name and does she have a website?
SL

 

[IluvABbeef]

Kerin,
Re:
Yes, just as soon as I stop laughing my XXX off!

Can you get this lady to come on here and defend herself because I would hate to chew all around her XXXuntil it falls out without her being here to defend herself?
What's her name and does she have a website?
SL

Check your PM.

 

[Frankie]

Alftn,
Re:

You going to have to mow ( in west tn.)

How true! And it should be done everywhere if you want healthy animals, a good weight gain and quality meat.
But you forgot sage grass and butter cups.
Don't you have those?
If you let sage grass and/or butter cups go, you will have no grass.
If you don't mow your pastures what you will have is the prettiest crop of weed no cow is going to eat and a pasture that's nothing but a prescription for pinkeye.

And that is exactly what I say in every pic I saw while researching this!

Damnn, my fingers still tired from hitting the back button all night!!

Show me a picture of a properly maintained intensive grazing pasture with lots of weeds. The Noble Foundation used to have a plot probably 20X20 fenced off and not grazed in one of their paddocks. It was terrible, weeds, poor quality grass. All around in the grazed paddock the grass was much better and the weeds were practically nonexistent. Their hands rode around on a fourwheeler to move the cows from paddock to paddock. They didn't throw alfalfa across the fence because they had standing dry grass for the animals to graze for much of the winter.

It might not work for you, but it's amazing that you completely refute and insult a widely used management system that you apparently didn't even know existed until a few days ago! And are so totally unwilling to even learn about. I'm actually speechless and won't say anything else about this one.

 

[Frankie]

Okay, here's the thing.

First of all, the number of pastures that she has is 66 pastures over around 480 acres. She rotates 200 head of stockers (or feeders, whichever you want to call them), weighing an average of 625 lbs each at the beginning of the grazing period. She rotates them each day, and there apparently is no worry of stress or overcrowding, because, now that she has 66 pastures over 480 acres, she has more than 2 acres per pasture, more like an average of 6 acres per pasture.

Now, the height of the forages when she puts them out is a big thing, more so because she knows that the higher quality forage is in the vegetative parts of the grass (she also grows Cicer Milkvetch in her pastures, a long with Timothy and a few other species commonly grown in her part of Alberta).

From what she has shown us and what she has studied in her career (FYI: she was a student at the U of A a number of years ago), the stockers gain more (i.e. thier % effeciency, as somebody previously said a page or two back) because of bite size. I know, your gonna think it's crazy, but it's true. Cattle have a bigger bite size when they're put out on fresh, high quality grass. This is because the cattle don't have to spend time choosing, or looking for where thier next bite is gonna be. Thus choice will be quick, and bites will be big. SO, that means bigger bite size means bigger gain, and through intensive/rotational grazing like the method that the guest lecturer told us about, if you put stockers out on fresh pasture more often, technically they'll put on more: yeah, fattening them up like a bunch of sardines. :lol:

The cleanup that she does is to put some cows on a couple days later clean up the lower quality (more stemmy) material. Since obviously beef cows have a lower nutritional-intake requirement than stockers do. BUT, she doesn't graze down to the ground (overgrazing), so the grass will shoot back up again after a 20-30 (sometimes 40 if rain is scarce) day rest period. (Rest period time depends on the time of season, but I'm sure you know that already.)

Now, anymore questions?

It's an effective and good system. It's demanding. A person needs to know their grass and cattle, plus it takes more time than just turning the cows out. Our place had been badly overgrazed when we took it over. We really improved the native grass by using this method.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Alftn,
Re:

You going to have to mow ( in west tn.)

How true! And it should be done everywhere if you want healthy animals, a good weight gain and quality meat.
But you forgot sage grass and butter cups.
Don't you have those?
If you let sage grass and/or butter cups go, you will have no grass.
If you don't mow your pastures what you will have is the prettiest crop of weed no cow is going to eat and a pasture that's nothing but a prescription for pinkeye.

And that is exactly what I say in every pic I saw while researching this!

Damnn, my fingers still tired from hitting the back button all night!!

Show me a picture of a properly maintained intensive grazing pasture with lots of weeds. The Noble Foundation used to have a plot probably 20X20 fenced off and not grazed in one of their paddocks. It was terrible, weeds, poor quality grass. All around in the grazed paddock the grass was much better and the weeds were practically nonexistent. Their hands rode around on a fourwheeler to move the cows from paddock to paddock. They didn't throw alfalfa across the fence because they had standing dry grass for the animals to graze for much of the winter.

It might not work for you, but it's amazing that you completely refute and insult a widely used management system that you apparently didn't even know existed until a few days ago! And are so totally unwilling to even learn about. I'm actually speechless and won't say anything else about this one.

I;d like to add something to that. THere was a study done on Canada Thistle (call it CT for short), with continuous, rotational, and intensive grazing (somthing like that). The folks doing the study carried this out for a couple of years, and did a comparison.

Turned out that CT was/is sensitive to intensive grazing. CT came back more often in the continuous- and rotational- grazing parts, but growth declined with intenstive grazing. A year later, the CT didn't come back IN the intensive grazing system.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Okay, here's the thing.

First of all, the number of pastures that she has is 66 pastures over around 480 acres. She rotates 200 head of stockers (or feeders, whichever you want to call them), weighing an average of 625 lbs each at the beginning of the grazing period. She rotates them each day, and there apparently is no worry of stress or overcrowding, because, now that she has 66 pastures over 480 acres, she has more than 2 acres per pasture, more like an average of 6 acres per pasture.

Now, the height of the forages when she puts them out is a big thing, more so because she knows that the higher quality forage is in the vegetative parts of the grass (she also grows Cicer Milkvetch in her pastures, a long with Timothy and a few other species commonly grown in her part of Alberta).

From what she has shown us and what she has studied in her career (FYI: she was a student at the U of A a number of years ago), the stockers gain more (i.e. thier % effeciency, as somebody previously said a page or two back) because of bite size. I know, your gonna think it's crazy, but it's true. Cattle have a bigger bite size when they're put out on fresh, high quality grass. This is because the cattle don't have to spend time choosing, or looking for where thier next bite is gonna be. Thus choice will be quick, and bites will be big. SO, that means bigger bite size means bigger gain, and through intensive/rotational grazing like the method that the guest lecturer told us about, if you put stockers out on fresh pasture more often, technically they'll put on more: yeah, fattening them up like a bunch of sardines. :lol:

The cleanup that she does is to put some cows on a couple days later clean up the lower quality (more stemmy) material. Since obviously beef cows have a lower nutritional-intake requirement than stockers do. BUT, she doesn't graze down to the ground (overgrazing), so the grass will shoot back up again after a 20-30 (sometimes 40 if rain is scarce) day rest period. (Rest period time depends on the time of season, but I'm sure you know that already.)

Now, anymore questions?

It's an effective and good system. It's demanding. A person needs to know their grass and cattle, plus it takes more time than just turning the cows out. Our place had been badly overgrazed when we took it over. We really improved the native grass by using this method.

Exactly. :nod: The planning involved in this system is amazing, and it never fails; the pastures that a body wants to start on doesn't get started on until a few days, or even a week later. And then some. She says, "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail."

I'm pretty sure they spend all winter just working on next year's planning sheets for the next grazing system.