Custom grazing

[Sir Loin]

IluvABbeef,
Let's see if we can clear this up.
Exactly what did I say that tripped your trigger?
If I owe you an opoligy, you will certainly get it.
Please quote the statement and the date and time of the post.
Thank you

 

[Sir Loin]

Wewild,
Re:

How's your computer battery doing?

I haven't got a clue what you are talking about.
Fill me in.
SL

 

[Wewild]

Wewild,
Re:

How's your computer battery doing?

I haven't got a clue what you are talking about.
Fill me in.
SL

I wasn't talking to you. She knows.

 

[Wewild]

I allways thought an acre was 210 x 210 which comes to 44100 sq feet.

That would make you wrong. It is 43560 sq ft.

 

[Sir Loin]

Can someone please tell me exactly what she is attempting to accomplish.
What is her goal with 66 pastures?
Why not just use the existing 3 pastures?

I just don't get it!
If you have X number of acres it will only produce X number of tons of grass, and X number of tons of grass will only feed X number of cattle, no mater how you slice it or move the cattle.
Moving the cattle is not going to change the tonnage.
Where am I wrong?

 

[Frankie]

Can someone please tell me exactly what she is attempting to accomplish.
What is her goal with 66 pastures?
Why not just use the existing 3 pastures?

I just don't get it!
If you have X number of acres it will only produce X number of tons of grass, and X number of tons of grass will only feed X number of cattle, no mater how you slice it or move the cattle.
Moving the cattle is not going to change the tonnage.
Where am I wrong?

You're wrong. Do a Google search for Intensive grazing or rotational grazing. You can stock more head under those management conditions than letting the cattle graze where they want. Depending on the type of forage you have, you can also improve forage quality. Plus the cattle get the highest quality grass, then are moved to another paddock that has been "resting" and get the highest quality there and so on through the paddocks. You should get better gains on stockers in a properly managed intensive grazed program.

 

[IL Rancher]

By mob grazing you also will generallly get higher % utilization than you will with continuous or slow rotation grazing.. There are some folks who are Alan Savory fans will talk about sheer tonnage per acre and it would not be uncommon to have the 200 head on an acre for 12 hours or something like that.. theory being that the soil gets disturbed more which helps it take in a bit more water after the cows leave.. Kind of replicaiton of what migratory Bison would have done years ago (Although that was achieved through sheer number as oppossed to confining them to a small area)...

the theory behind the 60 paddocks is if you graze for a day or 2 than you allow tons of time for the pastures you left behind to regenerate and reduce the amount of days that particular plant is gettin stepped on, peed on, and chewed on a year.. You also force the cows to eat EVERYTHING and not just select the decreasers that are in the pasture first..

 

[Sir Loin]

You can stock more head under those management conditions than letting the cattle graze where they want.

Why?
All you are doing is changing the X number of cattle and lowering all their individual intake.

If X number of cattle =2 and X tonnage = 1 then both head of cattle would eat a ½ ton each.
If X number of cattle =3 then they would only get 1/3 ton each and all 3 would lose weight.

Depending on the type of forage you have, you can also improve forage quality.

Just having the cattle there does that no matter how they are moved or how often.

Plus the cattle get the highest quality grass, then are moved to another paddock that has been "resting" and get the highest quality there and so on through the paddocks.

Cattle do that on their own if left to roam free.

You should get better gains on stockers in a properly managed intensive grazed program.

I find that hard to believe when they are eating the exact same quality and quantity of grass as if there were no fences.

Are you trying to tell me that rotating the cattle daily will improve the growth of the grass? Change soil fertility and/or change the weather?

I'm still not buying it.
Now I rotate from an individual pasture to another individual pasture, but certainly not daily.
And I also move them within an individual pasture by simply mowing a section of a large pasture when it's needed, but certainly not daily.
The pasture condition determines the moving, not some abatrary date or time table.

Sounds to me like some people are simply trying to be in the feedlot business without feeding.

 

[Sir Loin]

By mob grazing you also will generallly get higher % utilization than you will with continuous or slow rotation grazing. 200 head on an acre for 12 hours

You may, but that is not grazing, that is forced feeding.
And that is a feedlot tactic. We do it all the time.
What you are doing is forcing them to compete for what is there or go without. Including weeds.
And that creates stress, as does crowding, and both create weight loss.
I'm still not buying it.

Plus with pasture only force feeding you will not get the marbling and end up with burger grade. And there goes any profit you thought you made by weight gain.
So what do we do now call them "pasturers" and not "feeder" steers because they are not being fed?
Fact is: People brought her FEEDER steers and she is not feeding them. She is building a frame for someone else to buy as feeders and feed them out. No wonder she is trying to pack them in like sardines on grass only.
Fact is, she makes money no matter how much weight that gain, as I'm sure she is being paid per pound gained. Hence the scale!

only major equipment absolutely necessary to have is a scale

Re:

I dunno if anyone on here is familiar with this type of grazing operation, but if anyone is, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Now I can answer that question. Yes I'm familiar, we call them Georgia farmers. They are the ones who let their cattle eat the bark off the trees just to get the weight gain by building a frame. Only they don't use fences or pastures. They simply turn their cattle lose on a overgrown clear cut pine grove that has been harvested.
And they wonder why they don't get CAB prices.
I wonder if she is getting some of that USDA grant money also.
Go figure!
SL

 

[BC]

The program being refered to is Managed Intensive Grazing. As mentioned by several of the posters it is done in lots of places by variety of methods. The Noble Foundation in Ardmore,OK is a private research foundation that takes ides like this and puts them to pratical use. Their system is very similar to this one. Stocker steers are grazed ahead of cow-calf pairs which clean up what was left.

Sir Loin, you are right in that the purpose is to grow a frame and get the animals big enough to go to the feed yard at about 750 to 800 lbs for finishing.

There are several daries in my area that utilize this grazing method quite successfully. 100 to 125 cows in a 5 to 7 acre paddock. This time of year they cut the paddock in half with a single hot wire for 12 hours. You get better utilization and more even manure distribution. When you come back in 16 to 20 days you have lush grass again.

 

[Sir Loin]

This is the most comprehensive site I found on the subject that gives the pros and cons of both methods.
Choosing a Grazing System

Continuous grazing, the most common grazing system in the United States, usually results over time in a plant community of less-desirable species. When livestock graze without restriction, they eat the most palatable forage first. If these plants are repeatedly grazed without allowing time for their roots to recover and leaves to regrow, they will die. Plants not eaten by livestock mature and go to seed. Thus, populations of undesirable plants increase, while preferred plants are eliminated, reducing the quality of the forage in a given pasture. Trampling and animals' avoidance of their own wastes further reduce the amount of usable forage.
Continuous grazing does, however, have the benefit of low capital investment, since few fencing and watering facilities are required. Because livestock are seldom moved from pasture to pasture, management decisions are simple. This type of grazing frequently results in higher per-animal gains than other grazing systems, as long as adequate forage is available to maintain high growth rates. But if pastures are overstocked, growth rates dwindle.

Source: http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/rotategr.html
Thanks all, but I still don't buy it or see it happening in my future. If for no other reason then we are on rented and leased land and those with a lease aren't long enough to even recoup the cost of the fencing.
Plus even if the lease was long enough (10yrs), the topography is entirely too restrictive to permit it.

It seems to me that the claim to fame for Managed Intensive Grazing (or what ever you want to call it) is you can run more cattle and make more money.
I can run the same number of cattle on the same number of acres as any Managed Intensive Grazing system simply buy "throwing the cow over the fence some hay" even if I had to buy it. (Little PA dutch there)
I'll trade hay cost for fence cost and mantance any day and still produce a bigger and better animal.
I rest my case.
SL
Sir Loin has left the building!

 

[BC]

I think you have missed the point. This system works for classes of cattle that need high quality forage - growing calves and dairy cattle. The cows and calves were used to CLEAN up behind the stocker calves.

One strand high tensile strength wire is not much fencing and can be taken down and rolled up if you lose your lease.

 

[Sir Loin]

This system works for classes of cattle that need high quality forage - growing calves and dairy cattle.

Now I don't mean to bust your bubble but they will be eating the same quality grass weather I have it fenced or not. And the hay I throw over the fence can be alfalfa and it doesn't get any better then that. And I will still come out ahead.

One strand high tensile strength wire is not much fencing and can be taken down and rolled up if you lose your lease.

Well here is the first problem.
I will need about 5 miles of it as I am the primary care giver for 1,000 acres.
Second:
One strand of anything won't cut it. Either my cows will be stepping over it or my calves will be going under it. No, we will need at least 2 strands. So make that 10 miles and a helicopter to get me into where it needs to go.

Now if you are going to suggest 1 or more strand of electrified wire, forget it. We have sage grass here which gets 3 ft, high and shorts out electric fencing. And if you put it above 3 ft the calves walk out under it. Plus my bulls walk right through electric fence and some times even 5 strands of barb.
But thanks for the sugestions.
SL

 

[novatech]

Sir Loin, Frankie is right you need to do the google search.

As Dun said this practice has been around for years. It has been a proven management practice for stockers. It even has the side benefit of more even manure dispersal. As far as stomping it down, thats were the manager is supposed to manage.

Nobody has sugested that it be use on 1000 acres, although it could be. It is not normally used for a cow calf operation, although it could be. We use it to control graze our spring growth of oats and rye in about 5 acre sections each.

You may also want to google up on how to properly install an electric fence.

One more note, I also lease land and I can keep my electric fences when my lease expires. Your hay is an ongoing expense, and just as labor intensive.

 

[dun]

It is not normally used for a cow calf operation, although it could be.

That's what we use it for.

dun

 

[novatech]

It is not normally used for a cow calf operation, although it could be.

That's what we use it for.

dun

In hindsite, I guess it may be used even more for cow calf. Thinking back, my grandfather even did it.

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

Sir Loin, Frankie is right you need to do the google search.

BS! I have googled it so many times I now get this!

The End of the Internet
Congratulations, you have reached the End of the Internet. To get back to the Other End of the Internet please click on the back button on your browser 3,307,998,701 times.
Many thanks
The Internet team
The End
Sunday 1st April 2007 3:04:31 PM

Source: http://www.tribbs.co.uk/end_of_the_internet.php
Fact is. I have already read everything there is to read on this subject and I still ain't buying it!

Now what are your comments about this?

" Continuous grazing does, however, have the benefit" "This type of grazing frequently results in higher per-animal gains than other grazing systems"

There was one question I had that after all that reading was not answered.
Q. Under Managed Intensive Grazing, or what ever you call it, do you mow the pastures?
Please answer yes or no first, then you may expound if you wish.
SL

 

[dun]

There was one question I had that after all that reading was not answered.
Q. Under Managed Intensive Grazing, or what ever you call it, do you mow the pastures?
Please answer yes or no first, then you may expound if you wish.
SL

That's simple, yes, no, maybe, sometimes, it depends.
Somw years we'll grass apasture then let it gorw back and cut and bale it, someyears the seed heads bolt and you clip them to remove the seed head then graze behind it.
You're primarily managing grass, the cows are the tool you use to do it.

dun

 

[Sir Loin]

Dun,
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but where does it say that. I must have missed that part. No where did I even see mowing even mentioned.
Please quote your source, complete with URL.

Dun,
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but where does it say that. I must have missed that part.
Please quote your source, complete with URL.
Thanks
SL

If you mow just once we have the expense of a tractor and a mower which costs about 10 times what a scale costs.

and the only major equipment absolutely necessary to have is a scale.

Now that's a flat out lie if you mow at all!
So not we are back to "truth in advertising" issues.
More and more it's beginning to look like we are dealing with another chicken choker like Salatan.

Thanks
SL

 

[Frankie]

Dun,
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but where does it say that. I must have missed that part. No where did I even see mowing even mentioned.
Please quote your source, complete with URL.

Dun,
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but where does it say that. I must have missed that part.
Please quote your source, complete with URL.
Thanks
SL

If you mow just once we have the expense of a tractor and a mower which costs about 10 times what a scale costs.

and the only major equipment absolutely necessary to have is a scale.

Now that's a flat out lie!
So not we are back to "truth in advertising" issues.
More and more it's beginning to look like we are dealing with another chicken choker like Salatan.

Thanks
SL

Just because you don't believe it doesn't make it so. Dozens of universities, the Noble Foundation, ranchers, use it and recommend it. We've been using intensive grazing for probably 15 years. We've never mowed a pasture.

If you're running it right (correct stocking rate for grass), you don't need to mow. It's tougher to make it work for the cow-calf man. If you're running stockers and have too much grass, you go buy more stockers. If you don't have enough grass, you sell some stockers. That's more difficult for those of us with cows and calves, especially the registered ones. In our case, if we have too much grass, we just leave it standing and move them to the next paddock when the best grass has been topped out.

We've improved our native grasses tenfold or more over those years. Of course, when it stops raining, it doesn't much matter what sort of management system you have.

BTW, tell me more about those CAB cattle you own. Which packing plant is it that's going to pay you the CAB premium on the basis of ultrasound. That sounds like something I might be interested in passing on to our bull buyers. :roll: