Cull This Cow!

[randiliana]

Maybe one of your bulls is the problem. Very large calves, calves with no vaccinations, bloat issues. It sounds like to me you have some management issues that need to be addressed or modified.

You think so, hmm, maybe you should actually read through the whole thread. One big calf out of 30 or so heifers doesn't make a bull problem... Unvaccinated calves under 2 months old, well, I try think you might want to talk to a few veterinarians about when the optimal time to vaccinate baby calves is. And a few babies with bloat issues, once again read the whole thread, it might be an eyeopener for you on the thoughts and processes we went through trying to figure out and prevent a recurrence next year.

I am curious how many calving seasons you have gone through without any issues and how many cows you calved out.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Maybe one of your bulls is the problem. Very large calves, calves with no vaccinations, bloat issues. It sounds like to me you have some management issues that need to be addressed or modified.

You think so, hmm, maybe you should actually read through the whole thread. One big calf out of 30 or so heifers doesn't make a bull problem... Unvaccinated calves under 2 months old, well, I try think you might want to talk to a few veterinarians about when the optimal time to vaccinate baby calves is. And a few babies with bloat issues, once again read the whole thread, it might be an eyeopener for you on the thoughts and processes we went through trying to figure out and prevent a recurrence next year.

I am curious how many calving seasons you have gone through without any issues and how many cows you calved out.

You say above that most of his calves are in the 80 to 90 lb range. That's around 20 lbs too big for me. I was scared to death of my char bull for that very reason but he's throwing mostly 70 lb calves. They grow like crazy too.

You are good at what you do. Just expressing my opinion.

Agree with you on vaccinating. I am calving year round. Vaccinate in spring or fall. Some calves are 6 months before they get their first. It just happens that way. Two to three weeks later they get a booster. They all get banded and tagged at birth but that's it. 7 herds adjoin me and they get exposed to everything. Cows have excellent immunity as is.

 

[randiliana]

You say above that most of his calves are in the 80 to 90 lb range. That's around 20 lbs too big for me. I was scared to death of my char bull for that very reason but he's throwing mostly 70 lb calves. They grow like crazy too.

You are good at what you do. Just expressing my opinion.

Agree with you on vaccinating. I am calving year round. Vaccinate in spring or fall. Some calves are 6 months before they get their first. It just happens that way. Two to three weeks later they get a booster. They all get banded and tagged at birth but that's it. 7 herds adjoin me and they get exposed to everything. Cows have excellent immunity as is.

No offense taken backhoe, but we've both been around on here a while, and seen a little of each others operations...

I have no problems with 80-90 lb calves even on the heifers. In fact I would rather have an 80 lb calf than one under 70 lbs. On the cows 90+ is good. That's what works up here. The little ones just don't generally have enough growth for us.

We run on a once a year 60 or so, day calving season. Calves are all processed in early - mid May, most are about 6-8 weeks old then. They get vaccinated with an 8-way, dewormed and branded. Most other things were done right at birth. Boosters about weaning time.

 

[bird dog]

Maybe one of your bulls is the problem. Very large calves, calves with no vaccinations, bloat issues. It sounds like to me you have some management issues that need to be addressed or modified.

You think so, hmm, maybe you should actually read through the whole thread. One big calf out of 30 or so heifers doesn't make a bull problem... Unvaccinated calves under 2 months old, well, I try think you might want to talk to a few veterinarians about when the optimal time to vaccinate baby calves is. And a few babies with bloat issues, once again read the whole thread, it might be an eyeopener for you on the thoughts and processes we went through trying to figure out and prevent a recurrence next year.


I'm sorry that you were offended by my answer, It was not suppose to be that way. But you asked so I answered. If I had a 105 lb calf, I would blame my self for the problem, surely not the heifer. And yes you are right, all my calves do not get vaccinated at the optimal time, some are a few weeks early, some a few weeks late, but they all get a shot. Once again you are correct on the bloat, you are blessed with good forage that can cause bloat. I am stuck with the issue only for a few months a year and don't have a problem. Then again, maybe its the high mag mineral put out at the right time that stays away the problem.

<I am curious how many calving seasons you have gone through without any issues and how many cows you calved out.

>

I'm sorry that you were offended by my answer, It was not suppose to be that way. But you asked so I answered. If I had a 105 lb calf, I would blame my self for the problem, surely not the heifer. And yes you are right, all my calves do not get vaccinated at the optimal time, some are a few weeks early, some a few weeks late, but they all get a shot. Once again you are correct on the bloat, you are blessed with good forage that can cause bloat. I am stuck with the issue only for a few months a year and don't have a problem. Then again, maybe its the high mag mineral put out at the right time that stays away the problem.

<I am curious how many calving seasons you have gone through without any issues and how many cows you calved out.[/quote]>

Thats also easy, None. There is always something. How many have I calved out... I'm sure not as many as you, probably only 1000 or so. I'm a hobby farmer.
I'm sorry but I feel like backhoe, your calves are to big. Keep your calves at a moderate size and a lot of your health issues go away.

 

[Taurus]

I'm sorry but I feel like backhoe, your calves are to big. Keep your calves at a moderate size and a lot of your health issues go away.

:bs:
80-90lbs calves are not that big. Its more average birth weight for most folks up north. If you want to see big calves, try 105-120lbs calves. Also small calves can cause health issues as well. All calves can get sick regardless of how easy/hard the birth is.

 

[Nesikep]

I'd like to have 80-90 lb calves! that would be perfect... Last 5 years my average was right around 100 lbs.. Calves lost due to size? 0 out of 110ish. I usually have a couple a year born between 130 and 140 on the bigger cows, Heifers will usually throw 80-90 lb bulls and 70-80 lb heifers on the first attempt.
I don't get hung up on a bull's birthweight, though I do try and keep it 'moderate'.. 80-90 lb is moderate. What I do like is when I have month old calves pushing 250 lbs. I've long concentrated my attention on maternal calving ease, and select bulls for length and smoothness, which goes a long way for calving ease.
Hillsdown has got my heaviest calf beat by a good 20 lbs... but here's one of my heaviest being born, and done right.
[youtube]GwcnbPEmnRs[/youtube]

 

[randiliana]

I'm sorry that you were offended by my answer, It was not suppose to be that way. But you asked so I answered. If I had a 105 lb calf, I would blame my self for the problem, surely not the heifer. And yes you are right, all my calves do not get vaccinated at the optimal time, some are a few weeks early, some a few weeks late, but they all get a shot. Once again you are correct on the bloat, you are blessed with good forage that can cause bloat. I am stuck with the issue only for a few months a year and don't have a problem. Then again, maybe its the high mag mineral put out at the right time that stays away the problem.

Perhaps you need to realize that I live in Canada, not Texas, there is a huge, huge difference in Birth weights from here to there. I DO NOT want small, small calves, up here they are much more of a problem, than having the occasional big one that we have to help be born, not to mention that they just don't have the growth we are looking for. When we calve, we can, and have had temps around 0F. A 70 lb calf just doesn't get up and going in that kind of weather. Besides which our cold winters, make bigger calves. Also, as far as I know, I never said I blamed the heifer.... Although, when we calved out 33 heifers, with 4 pulls and the rest unassisted, I think maybe the ones we had to help could be the problem...

Here's some stats for you. 33 heifers, hard pull on 4 calves, easy pull on one. Average BW on the group was 79 lbs, on the heifer calves was 74 and bull calves was 84 lbs. There were 18 heifer calves born and 15 steers. Now this one calf was about 13 lbs heavier than the next heaviest calf, I would like to know how you think I should have had her have a smaller calf?

Now, as far as the bloat goes, baby calves don't generally get bloat from good forage. What we are likely dealing with is perforated ulcers. They generally happen in calves around that month old range. The research and reading I've done so far, shows that no-one really knows why they happen, although, there is some suggestion that it could be cause by one of the various clostridial diseases, and I couldn't tell you which one.

Our management at this point in time, is that we vaccinate the cows at branding time with a clostridial 8way (blackleg) and with Express 3 VL5 (BVD, PI3, IBR) and the calves are also vaccinated at THAT time with the same clostridial the cows get. Unfortunately, that is about a MONTH later than when we were losing calves. When we brand and vaccinate the calves are about the recommended age of about 2 months old(mostly).

Now, since this bloat issue popped up for the first time here THIS spring, we are trying to figure out what to do it to prevent the problems NEXT year. I have read a few studies that suggest giving the babies a shot of an 7 or 8 way (Clostridial) vaccine when they are born has shown some success in preventing perforated ulcers. I am wondering if maybe it would work to vaccinate the cows shortly before calving starts and if they would pass the immunity on to the calves through their colostrum, rather than vaccinating the calves. However, at this point, I have not had time to look into that.

Now onto the high Mag mineral, that is not an issue that we have here. We keep a good trace mineral supplement out for the cows, but we worry about Selenium more than anything else.

<I am curious how many calving seasons you have gone through without any issues and how many cows you calved out.

>

Thats also easy, None. There is always something. How many have I calved out... I'm sure not as many as you, probably only 1000 or so. I'm a hobby farmer.
I'm sorry but I feel like backhoe, your calves are to big. Keep your calves at a moderate size and a lot of your health issues go away.[/quote]

We calve out about 150-200 cows here every spring, in about 6 weeks. It makes for a very busy time, and diseases can pop up and cause BIG problems in a big hurry if you do not stay on top of things. There is a lot of management that goes into keeping things healthy around here, especially at calving time.

However, my idea of a moderate BW and yours are different, a big part of that is where we live. To me a nice BW for the cows to have is in that 90-95 lb range, and I expect a cow to be able to handle a 100 lb calf on her own, and it isn't terribly unusual for us to have 15 calves over 110 lbs and most will be born unassisted. For the heifers,80-85 lbs is a nice weight, but I'm not too upset about having to assist a heifer if the calf is up over 85 lbs. But, having said that, we don't usually have to help many heifers even if they do occasionally have one over 90 lbs. Maybe we push them a little, but, at least they will go on to raise a calf that weighs over 450 lbs...

Have a look at this study about climate and calf BW
http://www.sites.ext.vt.edu/newsletter- ... s-302.html

There is another really good one out there, I can't find it though. But the gist of it was, that they had a group of Hereford cows in one of the northern states (Montana or North Dakota), they bred them all to the same bull/s and then took part of the herd to Florida. There was about 15 lbs difference I believe in the BW from the cows in the north to the cows in the south at calving time. Wish I could find the actual article though...

 

[backhoeboogie]

There is another really good one out there, I can't find it though. But the gist of it was, that they had a group of Hereford cows in one of the northern states (Montana or North Dakota), they bred them all to the same bull/s and then took part of the herd to Florida. There was about 15 lbs difference I believe in the BW from the cows in the north to the cows in the south at calving time. Wish I could find the actual article though...[/b]

I've read that a few times. Don't think it was the exact same article tho because I don't remember Hereford cows.

One article compared cows to white tail deer. They noted genetics brought to preserves here in the south and changes in the first generation. Even for deer put on feeders year round.

We have had a few monsters whtie tails as of late. But they are few and far between. Our deer are smaller on average, period.

We have good calf weaning weights tho. Our breeds, on average, have a variance too. Beefmaster calves here seem big. My daughter bought a bunch of registered BM and her calf birthweights are too extreme.

 

[Vicky the vet]

Lice can contribute to ulcers in some herds-- trichobezors aka hair balls from licking were found in one herd I was posting calves on, every single one too large to pass and a perfed abomasum causing death. That specific herd went to delice, no further problems that year. It could be a coincidence, but it fits....

And Happy Turkey Day to my fellow Canucks!!

 

[Nesikep]

I'm sure the remaining turkeys are all very happy

I don't quite understand why my BW's shot up suddenly, I think I had pretty typical BW's for where I live, but now that I'm used to my calves when they're born and I see my neighbors, I think his are WEENIE.. and he's only a mile away.

 

[randiliana]

Good info Vicky, I don't think that lice are the cause, cows are on a delousing program, and I haven't noticed any symptoms.