cross breeding

[9 ER]

I've asked this question before, but I guess I still dont understand. I was under the impression that when you cross breed you can throw the EPDs out the window. If that is so, then why worry about BW or CED when selecting an Angus bull to breed or AI non-angus cows?

 

[cowgal]

The idea is that their offspring's "EPD's" will kinda go out the window. But that doesn't mean that "in theory" you can't make educated mating decisions based on the EPD's or body structure of the parents.

 

[Scotty]

I've asked this question before, but I guess I still dont understand. I was under the impression that when you cross breed you can throw the EPDs out the window. If that is so, then why worry about BW or CED when selecting an Angus bull to breed or AI non-angus cows?

Just because you cross doesn't mean you throw them out the window. You would want to know the CED and BW if you were using these on any type of heifer. Also on msaller cows. The BW and CED numbers are as much a tool for the commercial cowman as the seed stock producers. EPDS are used all the time for commercial operations for all aspects. IMF and those are for the producers that retain ownership and put there cattle in a feed lot. Some producers produce commercial replacements and use them as a guid line to sell their animals because they are out of registered stock and have a little better idea of the type of animal going to be produced. So EPDs in any instance is a helpfull tool. Don't forget to look at the animal also. I could sell a three legged cow with good EPDs.


Scotty

 

[cowgal]

let me clarify what i meant by the offspring's EPD's going out the window...
IMHO they will typically out perform what their EPD's would estimate b/c of the hybrid vigor. Live healthy babies with 4 legs and minimal stress at delivery(lol with the 3 legged cow!) will sell a heck of a lot better than calves that don't make it through the birth canal easy or in one piece (literally!)

 

[dun]

Just because you cross doesn't mean you throw them out the window. You would want to know the CED and BW if you were using these on any type of heifer. Also on msaller cows. The BW and CED numbers are as much a tool for the commercial cowman as the seed stock producers. EPDS are used all the time for commercial operations for all aspects. IMF and those are for the producers that retain ownership and put there cattle in a feed lot. Some producers produce commercial replacements and use them as a guid line to sell their animals because they are out of registered stock and have a little better idea of the type of animal going to be produced. So EPDs in any instance is a helpfull tool. Don't forget to look at the animal also. I could sell a three legged cow with good EPDs.


Scotty

Good answer! We crossbreed most everything and the majority of the cows are either registered or out of registered cows sired by registered bulls. The second generation, i.e. the crossbred cow, won;t have EPDs, but you still know the parentage and the expected abiitys of that crossbred cow. We alwasy cheat and use one particular Red Angus bull on all of our smaller heifers. This year we're trying an different bull only because some of the retained heifers are sired by that first bull. We know what we'll most likely get from him and we know what to expect from the heifers. But everyonce in a while you'll get a nick that just goes haywire. Happens with all breeds, not just crosses.

dun

 

[Frankie]

I've asked this question before, but I guess I still dont understand. I was under the impression that when you cross breed you can throw the EPDs out the window. If that is so, then why worry about BW or CED when selecting an Angus bull to breed or AI non-angus cows?

It doesn't matter if you're cross breeding. EPDs are best used to compare one bull (or cow) to another. If you're breeding heifers and Bull A has a BW EPD of 5 and Bull B has a BW EPD of 0, you know that Bull A's calves would be EXPECTED to weigh 5 more pounds at birth than Bull B's calves. EPDs won't tell you what the calf will weigh. Obviously they can't because the cow has input, too. But, with heifers, you'd be probably be better off to choose the bull with the BW EPD of 0.

If you retain heifers, pay close attention to the milk EPDand check out the mature height and weight EPDs.

If you're selling everything that hits the ground at weaning, the WW EPD might be more important than the yearling EPD. But if you're finishing your own calves in the feedlot, that YW EPD can be helpful.

Having said that, I'll say always look for BALANCED EPDs and be aware what the breed average is for the breed you select. Below average is OK for BW EPD, but you probably don't want a bull with a below aveage WW or YW EPD. And remember you can't compare EPDs of bulls of two different breeds.[/b]

 

[brokenmouth]

ollie whats your take

 

[9 ER]

I have a basic understanding of EPDs and what they mean and how they are used and their importance in breeding. Yall have done a good job there. I just though that there were to many other factors that determine BW or calving ease that those EPD were not that important in cross-breeding. Thanks for the clarrification.

 

[dun]

I have a basic understanding of EPDs and what they mean and how they are used and their importance in breeding. Yall have done a good job there. I just though that there were to many other factors that determine BW or calving ease that those EPD were not that important in cross-breeding. Thanks for the clarrification.

That's why we look to exceptional, way above average calving ease and way below birthweights in crosses. By the time she has her 2nd calf it doesn;t seem to make much difference anymore, but we still use calving ease bulls but don;t worry as much about BW. By the time she's had 2 calves, you have a pretty good idea of what her abilities are. If she works to get out a 80 lb calf or if she squirts it out like a watermelon seed.

dun

 

[ollie]

I have a basic understanding of EPDs and what they mean and how they are used and their importance in breeding. Yall have done a good job there. I just though that there were to many other factors that determine BW or calving ease that those EPD were not that important in cross-breeding. Thanks for the clarrification.

That's why we look to exceptional, way above average calving ease and way below birthweights in crosses. By the time she has her 2nd calf it doesn;t seem to make much difference anymore, but we still use calving ease bulls but don;t worry as much about BW. By the time she's had 2 calves, you have a pretty good idea of what her abilities are. If she works to get out a 80 lb calf or if she squirts it out like a watermelon seed.

dun

I never pull a calf. I have pulled one this year and it was breech in a heifer . Saved them both. How many do you pull Dun? If 0 then we have a difference of 0 in normal presentations. You know I use heavier bw cattle than you . My weaning weights are heavier than your I think. Why put such an emphisis on a trait that your not even close to having trouble with? I know we have different management styles but it is my opinion to challenge them some. You won't feed one yet you pamper them when calving like royalty. Let them work a little. No?

 

[Three T]

This might help, if it works
http://www.marc.usda.gov/cattle/gpe/AB_EPD2004News.pdf

 

[dun]

How many do you pull Dun? If 0 then we have a difference of 0 in normal presentations. You know I use heavier bw cattle than you . My weaning weights are heavier than your I think. Why put such an emphisis on a trait that your not even close to having trouble with? I know we have different management styles but it is my opinion to challenge them some. You won't feed one yet you pamper them when calving like royalty. Let them work a little. No?

The same number. I just checked through the data on weaning weights. On heifers it averages 522 on cows it averages 682. A lot of the size variation from one local to another stems from the forage base. With close bull selection you can get the low BW and still have excellent WW. The real stopper in the show is the high endophyte fescue in this area. Friends of our raise Brahnvieh, they're now down to pulling less then 10% of their calves, but there weaning weights only run around 6 pounds heivier then ours. Our calving interval is shorter also. The regularly slip a few cows from the fall calving herd to the spring herd and vice versa. We dont have that particular problem, but we also don;t/won't have that option. We strictly spring calve, if the miss the get to grow wheels. BTW, the folks with the Brahnvieh manage their grass very well also, but their cows are substanstially larger then ours with a few exceptions.

dun

 

[ollie]

Most of my commercial cows I actually "usually " don't take a weaning weight on. My registerd cows Will beat 682 some years. Some years not. That I guess isn't my point. My point is cant you get more weight out of your cows by challenging them a little more on bw? It the better cattle will give you a 1 to 10 birth to weaning ratio for example wouldn't that (or a similiar ) ratio hold true on the better cattle with a higher bw. That doesn't flow very well.
If you can find a bull that will give you average BW of 70 and ww of 700 can't you probably find a bull that will give you average bw of 80 and weaning weight of 800?

 

[dun]

Most of my commercial cows I actually "usually " don't take a weaning weight on. My registerd cows Will beat 682 some years. Some years not. That I guess isn't my point. My point is cant you get more weight out of your cows by challenging them a little more on bw? It the better cattle will give you a 1 to 10 birth to weaning ratio for example wouldn't that (or a similiar ) ratio hold true on the better cattle with a higher bw. That doesn't flow very well.
If you can find a bull that will give you average BW of 70 and ww of 700 can't you probably find a bull that will give you average bw of 80 and weaning weight of 800?

Probably could. The vet tried that, his calving intervals started creeping up. Ours for both cows and heifers average 350-385 days.
Part of that calf growth to weaning is forage also. Calves don;t do very well from late june thru august. Although the increased clover component has helped some, the majority of their diet is high endophyte fescue.
But as in everything else, different areas require different managment and genetics. If we could run them on WSG during the worst of the summer the weights would come up, or if we replaced the KY31 with one of the friendly endophyte fescues it would help too. But fescue doesn;t grow well during those months anyway. I'm inclined to think that based on the condition and growth of the yearlings that our best forage is november through april.

dun