Cross Bred Hereford Bull

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cbcr":3ih2optr said:
Composite bulls tend to have more longevity because of the direct hybrid vigor that they posses. Records have shown that composite bulls on average achieve a 30% increase in pregnancy rates over a 6 week breeding period than do pure-bred bulls.

Composite cattle DO have retained hybrid-vigor (heterosis), so calves sired by Composte bulls are affected.

Here we go,

If records have shown, then show me the records cowboy.

Let me guess, 3 out of 4 dentists agree that composite bulls are the way to go. :roll:

And by the way partner, composite is spelled with a lower case c as it is not a proper noun- no matter how much you would like it to be.
 
cbcr":1is7fiat said:
Composite bulls tend to have more longevity because of the direct hybrid vigor that they posses. Records have shown that composite bulls on average achieve a 30% increase in pregnancy rates over a 6 week breeding period than do pure-bred bulls.

Composite cattle DO have retained hybrid-vigor (heterosis), so calves sired by Composte bulls are affected.

That's all well and good, but we weren't talking about composites, we were talking about crossbreds. They're not the same thing.
 
Crossbred, Composite, Hybrid are all essentially the same, just terminology and name.

They ALL are made up of more than one breed.
 
cbcr":3uk0m63e said:
Crossbred, Composite, Hybrid are all essentially the same, just terminology and name.

They ALL are made up of more than one breed.

Well then it seems some are using the term "composite" a bit loosely these days.

Definition:
"Composites are a population made up of two or more component breeds, designed to retain heterosis (hybrid vigor) in future generations without crossbreeding, and maintained like a purebreed".


Development:
Developing a composite requires a large population of females, approximately 500 to 750 cows and 25 or more sires per generation. It takes a considerable amount of time to make the initial crosses, get through three generations of within herd matings of the crosses and liquidate the parent stock. Obviously this requires a sizable investment of money, time and patience. After all of that, there is no guarantee that the composite will be acceptable to the breeder or to the industry. Selection of breeds going into the composite is critical. Breed differences should be fully exploited so as to match the composite with the environment in which it will be used and to match it with market specifications.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/liv ... compbb.htm

True composites may have started out as crossbreds. But those crossbreds were bred to each other for several generations until certain traits became stabilized. Beefmasters, Santa Gertrudis, Brangus, and Brafords are examples of true composites. Just because more than one breed is involved doesn't mean it's a composite. A Hereford bull bred to an Angus cow results in a crossbred, not a composite. A hybrid, as I understand it, is a fancy name for a crossbred.
 
What is a breed?

The classic definition of a "breed" is usually stated as a variation of this statement.

Animals that, through selection and breeding, have come to resemble one another and pass those traits uniformly to their offspring.

Unfortunately this definition leaves some unanswered questions. For example, when is a crossbred animal considered a composite breed and when do we stop thinking about them as composites? Perhaps this definition from The Genetics of Populations by Jay L. Lush helps explain why a good definition of "breed" is elusive.

A breed is a group of domestic animals, termed such by common consent of the breeders, ... a term which arose among breeders of livestock, created one might say, for their own use, and no one is warranted in assigning to this word a scientific definition and in calling the breeders wrong when they deviate from the formulated definition. It is their word and the breeders common usage is what we must accept as the correct definition.

As you can see from Dr. Lush's definition it is at least in part the perception of the breeders and the livestock industry which decides when a group of individuals constitutes a "breed".

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/
 
cbcr":1g4tsc7u said:
What is a breed?

The classic definition of a "breed" is usually stated as a variation of this statement.

Animals that, through selection and breeding, have come to resemble one another and pass those traits uniformly to their offspring.

Unfortunately this definition leaves some unanswered questions. For example, when is a crossbred animal considered a composite breed and when do we stop thinking about them as composites? Perhaps this definition from The Genetics of Populations by Jay L. Lush helps explain why a good definition of "breed" is elusive.

A breed is a group of domestic animals, termed such by common consent of the breeders, ... a term which arose among breeders of livestock, created one might say, for their own use, and no one is warranted in assigning to this word a scientific definition and in calling the breeders wrong when they deviate from the formulated definition. It is their word and the breeders common usage is what we must accept as the correct definition.

As you can see from Dr. Lush's definition it is at least in part the perception of the breeders and the livestock industry which decides when a group of individuals constitutes a "breed".

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/

A breed is a group of domestic animals, termed such by common consent of the breeders, ... a term which arose among breeders of livestock, created one might say, for their own use, and no one is warranted in assigning to this word a scientific definition and in calling the breeders wrong when they deviate from the formulated definition. It is their word and the breeders common usage is what we must accept as the correct definition.

I take it you're trying to say that no one has a right to tell any breeder that he's wrong. In other words, if he has a herd of white cattle and he says they're Angus, then by golly they must be Angus. Interesting argument. Weak, but interesting.

It is their word and the breeders common usage is what we must accept as the correct definition.

This sentence is the key. Ever since Tom Lasater began to develop the Beefmaster breed over a century ago, the "correct definition" of composite cattle, at least according to "common usage", is the one I gave in my previous post. Now, if there's been a recent shift in thinking, and everybody's suddenly decided that any old crossbred can be called a composite, then so be it. Who am I to say otherwise? Right? Either way, it really doesn't matter to me. Call 'em God's gift to the cattle industry if you want. :lol2:

I'm tired and cranky and I'm going to bed. Have a nice night. :tiphat:
 
The reason they are marketing this bull is simple, to get Hereford colored steers "key word is steers" that will class as a Hereford even though they are not.
Since most open steer show class the animals by its color or type, a steer market like a Hereford, shows as a Hereford. The hardest Breed to get to class is an Angus, A good purebred Angus steer can get sifted out if it is to good, while a Main or Limi steer can make the class if he types out as an angus. Since the English breeds are usually smaller in numbers and not as competitive as the crossbred division, there is a demand for breed type Herefords, win your division and make the sell or better yet win the whole thing and walk away with tons of money. (but we all know there is only one winner)


Show sale results: National Western (Denver) Grand 50,000 Res. 33000

Houston Grand: 175,000 Res. 45,000

Fort Worth: Grand 185,000

NAILE: Grand 25,000

American Royal: Grand 60,000 Res. 23,000

Heat Wave (and clones) had 31 calves sell last year for and average of 15323 or 475000 total not to mention the hundreds of 2500 to 5000 claves they did not mention.

Show Cattle may not be real world but for those guys that know what they are doing they are making real money. There are more that fail than thrive just as they do in the real world.
 
When I was young I thought, The Show Circuit , was about SHOWING the Best cattle...Of real world cattle...

After being around the show circuit, it is about Politics, who you know , and illusions...

IT LIKE MINI-CATTLE, OR LONGHORNS----Just aint my thang , more power to you that want to play the game....
 
Let me understand this, the pursuit of cattle that fit the ideal look, big hipped, huge a$$ed, strait topped, smooth shouldered, heavy boned and cleaned fronted (characteristics I see bulls on this web paged knocked for not possessing all the time) and yes hair, have led to cattle that can be hard doing, high birth weights, structure issues, poor milking, and poor calving ease.All bred to be eye appealing. Even when the judges are Cattle Breeders, College Professors, all who could change the way show steers are bred by choosing cattle more in the middle pick cattle in the extreme.

How is this different then commercial cattle as well as cattle breeds.

The Angus whose pursuit for great EPD's have led to some cattle that are not phenotipicaly appealing. Hatchet a$$ is one that comes to mind.
How about the discussion on the 1800 pound cow, how did we get here, by chasing higher weaning weights, as cattle were bred to get bigger weaning weights on steers and heifers from these breeding were put into service, cows size began to increase, and their calves had higher weaning weights so we just kept the cycle going. That is until some one realized that these monster cows were not economically prudent. All you hear from the bull producers is the smaller bulls still do not sell like the large framed ones. Have we learned anything yet, some have but most have not.

Feeder steers still get docked if their smaller framed, larger framed steers are still in demand, how are you going to breed down your cows size and still produce steers that will get premium if you plan on keeping the heifers for replacements?

Unless breeders and growers are on the same page you wont, as long as judges pick the type of steers they are picking now show cattle will be extreme. The end consumer will not drive the change cattle buyers will on the commercial side and judges will on the show side.

Well this is just my observation, sorry for the dissertation.
 
VCC":3npyyxqk said:
Let me understand this, the pursuit of cattle that fit the ideal look, big hipped, huge a$$ed, strait topped, smooth shouldered, heavy boned and cleaned fronted (characteristics I see bulls on this web paged knocked for not possessing all the time) and yes hair, have led to cattle that can be hard doing, high birth weights, structure issues, poor milking, and poor calving ease.All bred to be eye appealing. Even when the judges are Cattle Breeders, College Professors, all who could change the way show steers are bred by choosing cattle more in the middle pick cattle in the extreme.

How is this different then commercial cattle as well as cattle breeds.

The Angus whose pursuit for great EPD's have led to some cattle that are not phenotipicaly appealing. Hatchet a$$ is one that comes to mind.
How about the discussion on the 1800 pound cow, how did we get here, by chasing higher weaning weights, as cattle were bred to get bigger weaning weights on steers and heifers from these breeding were put into service, cows size began to increase, and their calves had higher weaning weights so we just kept the cycle going. That is until some one realized that these monster cows were not economically prudent. All you hear from the bull producers is the smaller bulls still do not sell like the large framed ones. Have we learned anything yet, some have but most have not.

Feeder steers still get docked if their smaller framed, larger framed steers are still in demand, how are you going to breed down your cows size and still produce steers that will get premium if you plan on keeping the heifers for replacements?

Unless breeders and growers are on the same page you wont, as long as judges pick the type of steers they are picking now show cattle will be extreme. The end consumer will not drive the change cattle buyers will on the commercial side and judges will on the show side.

Well this is just my observation, sorry for the dissertation.

VCC-

No need to feel sorry for the dissertation! You are as right as rain! It seems to be a fact that producers tend to follow the "Judas Goat" because it is easier than thinking for themselves. Profitable beef production is not an easy occupation! As Kit Pharo says, " Be a Bunch Quitter!". But you have to know which OTHER bunch to follow in order to make a PROFIT in this business, unless you can think for yourself, read, investigate and learn some lessons before going broke.

DOC HARRIS
 
You can find a market and supply what is demanded for that market.
Or, you can produce what you want and market it.
 
novatech":1ywisurz said:
You can find a market and supply what is demanded for that market.
Or, you can produce what you want and market it.
:D Finally a concise, unassailable summation. Good one, nova!
 

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