Cross bred bulls

[Diehard40]

there is a difference in genetic variation among breeds and genetic variation across different breeds.

I agree for commercial cattle a good crossbred cow is ideal, but not crossbred bulls.

I guess all i can say is go ahead and try your crossbred "hybrid" bulls on your crossbred cows and let me know in a couple of years how it worked or didn't work for you.

 

[jnowack]

You got it folks!

Mostly I see a bunch of purebred breeders with crossed up lines telling me how much more uniform the calves will be from their bulls than from well designed 1/2 blood and composite programs.


Most of them have never owned a crossbred cow anyway, nor do they pay attention to the results from good crossbreeding programs. They just want to sell you expensive purebreds, rather than cheaper crossbreds, it is that simple.

It's just good ole boy purebred protectionist ********.

mtnman

Cheaper crossbreds? In the case of balancers they often sell for as much or more than the purebreds.

 

[MikeC]

Nothing wrong at all with using a Composite Bull in a terminal cross situation. IMHO

Someone (purebred breeders) will still be needed to protect the integrity of any one breed. If everyone used composites we would definitely have the mongrelization of the U.S. cattle herd.

Fads come and fads go. To each his own.

This debate has probably been around as long as cattle themselves. If the advantage is all that it's cracked up to be, more would be using composite bulls.

Jusy my opinion.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

when i think of cross bred bulls F1s come too mind. ive seen alot of these type ruin a calf crop. now a composite might have worked great even if they are a cross bred they will most likely throw uniform calves. given all the momas are consistant like the bull

 

[preston39]

Since many crosses are mongrals, it is generally thought that the disasters are experienced where unknown cross bulls are used. To avoid this one must do the cross breeding. Few employ this approach.

 

[mtnman]

"I guess all i can say is go ahead and try your crossbred "hybrid" bulls on your crossbred cows and let me know in a couple of years how it worked or didn't work for you."

Been doing it for right at 20 years. Over 20,000 matings. Works just fine. Crossbreds don't make the crop any more variable than the purebreds.

mtnman

 

[novaman]

Anyone that has used a composite bull would know how well they work in a commercial herd. I myself use nothing but composites and couldn't be happier with the calves I pull off the cows. I also have to disagree with those of you arguing that uniformity is an issue. My calf crop is more uniform now then it was when I used purebred bulls. Then again I don't raise black so I don't have to fret about a couple red calves in the bunch :roll: . As far as somebody having to protect the integrity of the breeds, I believe there are plenty enough people out there to do that. Many people believe black cattle are superior and they feel they have an advantage over others that don't have black. I believe composite bulls are superior to most purebreds so I feel I have an advantage. However, I have not and will not go to black cattle just like many people won't change to composite bulls.

 

[la4angus]

There is too much genetic variation in most purebred herds too. I'd rather have a crossbred bull from a breeder who has followed a consistant breeding program,

And just how many of these crossbred breeders herds are there that have followed a consistant breeding program over the years are there?

 

[mtnman]

Just the same percentage as any others la4angus.

Truthfully, from what I have witnessed, they tend to follow fads less, and tend to have a longer term goal in mind than most purebred producers. Since they traqditionally haven't had EPD, they have had to rely moreso on continually gathering hard data than purebred guys do. Purebred guys can just make a mating to fix the numbers. Composite guys couldn't they had to document where they were going.

That is the very reason they chose to be composite breeders.

I'm not talking about these newer Balancers, etc.

I'm talking about the guys doing it for 20 years or more now.

I concur, these newer guys will probably screw things up just as much as they help it.

mtnman

 

[Brandonm2]

There is too much genetic variation in most purebred herds too. I'd rather have a crossbred bull from a breeder who has followed a consistant breeding program,

And just how many of these crossbred breeders herds are there that have followed a consistant breeding program over the years are there?

Crossbreeding, particularly the production of F1s requires that the parent breeds provide a quality consistent product over time. I don't see how crossbred breeders are going to be immune to the same fads that the parent breeds have.

 

[Dap]

And just how many of these crossbred breeders herds are there that have followed a consistant breeding program over the years are there?

Very few, just like the purebred guys.

 

[Angus Guy]

Here's my question. Does anybody remember when hybrid boars were popular back in th 60s and 70s? After awhile they faded away when it was found that crossbreds on crossbreds did not work. Can't we learn something from this?

 

[Brandonm2]

Here's my question. Does anybody remember when hybrid boars were popular back in th 60s and 70s? After awhile they faded away when it was found that crossbreds on crossbreds did not work. Can't we learn something from this?

I don't remember WHAT was going on in hogs back in the 60s or 70s; but in the 90s I never set foot on a coporate farm that was using a single purebred boar. The sows were typically a white crossbred maternal line and the boars were typically a crossbred paternal line. We were using PIC products and boars from the same boar line could be ~Hampshire appearing, spotted, red, red Hampshire appearing, etc. Crossbreds on crossbreds is the norm in hogs.

 

[buffalo bill]

O.k.

Thought I might try to stir it up a little.

The following is obviously for commercial cattle people

I think everyone is agreed upon the fact that crossbred cows are the most productive cows. F-1's, black baldies, tiger stripes, etc. It is generally accepted that this is due to hybrid vigor. With that in mind, why wouldn't a crossbred bull be a desirable bull to have? Crossbred bulls on F-1's could potentially give you a 4 way cross in the first generation. I'm not talking about a mutt bred from who knows what, but well bred, phenotypically correct bulls.

I realize that crossbreds are not in the seedstock supplier's best interest, but anyone have comments concerning this??? Please list your pro's and con's with reasoning for such.

I'll start it off by saying the first con could possibly be the lack of uniformity of a calf crop.

Actually seedstock producers would make MORE money off of this. Most commercial guys buy a bull every three to five years per thirty cows. IF they also had to buy the F1 heifers the seedstock operation's business model would be much more profitable. The problem with this system is the complexity and the discipline involved. Lets say your maternal cross was Angus x Hereford and your paternal cross was Black Simmental x Limousin. For this too work somewhere there has to be your 4way cross herd, a herd of Angus cows being bred to Hereford bulls, a herd of Limousin cows being bred to Simmental bulls, AND a herd of Limousins being bred straight Limousin, AND a herd of Anguses being bred straight Angus too produce the females for the multiplier farm.....plus you need a Hereford bull and/or semen source and a Simmental bull and/or semen source You can do this; but you need to really coordinate this with your seedstock suppliers. You CAN simplify this with composites, F1s x F1s bred like a pure breed ,but you would lose SOME heterosis effects. What invariably happens in roto-terminal or terminal crossbreeding systems is that the commercial cattleman gets tired of writing that big check to the seedstock guy for the heifers and he keeps back a set of his terminal heifers and the whole thing leads to mongrelization.

f1 Xf1 you should get about 1/4 of 1breed involed and 1/4 of other breed and 1/2 same as f1's buffalo bill

 

[mtnman]

geez, if if didn't work, then why are there no purebred boars used anymore in hog production?

Something over 98% of the boars are x-bred, so I think that is close enough to say "no purebred boars".

If they had problems, it sure wasn't from using xbred boars, they were probably just trying to move too far too fast.

Sounds vaguely familiar.


mtnman

 

[jnowack]

geez, if if didn't work, then why are there no purebred boars used anymore in hog production?

Something over 98% of the boars are x-bred, so I think that is close enough to say "no purebred boars".

If they had problems, it sure wasn't from using xbred boars, they were probably just trying to move too far too fast.

Sounds vaguely familiar.


mtnman

Are all of the boars F1's or did they create the lines and then breed the F1 boars and sows to continue the line.

 

[Brandonm2]

geez, if if didn't work, then why are there no purebred boars used anymore in hog production?

Something over 98% of the boars are x-bred, so I think that is close enough to say "no purebred boars".

If they had problems, it sure wasn't from using xbred boars, they were probably just trying to move too far too fast.

Sounds vaguely familiar.


mtnman

Are all of the boars F1's or did they create the lines and then breed the F1 boars and sows to continue the line.

I have been on Grandparent farms (PIC, Dekalb, and NPD) and the grandparents were not pure either (though NPD came pretty darn close with the Large Whites and the Landraces). The hogs are composites that are crossed too produce a terminal cross bred pig.

 

[jnowack]

geez, if if didn't work, then why are there no purebred boars used anymore in hog production?

Something over 98% of the boars are x-bred, so I think that is close enough to say "no purebred boars".

If they had problems, it sure wasn't from using xbred boars, they were probably just trying to move too far too fast.

Sounds vaguely familiar.


mtnman

Are all of the boars F1's or did they create the lines and then breed the F1 boars and sows to continue the line.

I have been on Grandparent farms (PIC, Dekalb, and NPD) and the grandparents were not pure either (though NPD came pretty darn close with the Large Whites and the Landraces). The hogs are composites that are crossed too produce a terminal cross bred pig.

I'm talking about the terminal lines and the maternal lines (the boars and the sows that are used to produce the terminal cross pigs. Are they F1's (first cross between two different pure breeds) or are the parents crosses also?

 

[DRB]

I spoke to a guy at LSU about this very subject...breeding a F1 bull to a straight bred female...there has been a study that concludes if the brahma influence is on the sire side the resulting calf will be born larger...the cross doesn't work as well because the F1 female provides a greater "hustle" ( milking, foraging, ect.) than the straight bred female..you would get the hybrid vigor in the calf but miss it in the mothering ability...I still think it is a good idea...i want to breed a herford/brahma bull to my Charolais cows...i think the calves would be great...at present i us a straight herford and the calves are real nice,,big, stout, 700+ at weaning...?wayne waytt is the dr.'s name at LSU

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I spoke to a guy at LSU about this very subject...breeding a F1 bull to a straight bred female...there has been a study that concludes if the brahma influence is on the sire side the resulting calf will be born larger...the cross doesn't work as well because the F1 female provides a greater "hustle" ( milking, foraging, ect.) than the straight bred female..you would get the hybrid vigor in the calf but miss it in the mothering ability...I still think it is a good idea...i want to breed a herford/brahma bull to my Charolais cows...i think the calves would be great...at present i us a straight herford and the calves are real nice,,big, stout, 700+ at weaning...?wayne waytt is the dr.'s name at LSU

lfrom my experiance this cross would be better right the opposite. the best place for a F1 brah/herf bull is in the rodeo arena