Cross bred bulls

[Brandonm2]

I'm talking about the terminal lines and the maternal lines (the boars and the sows that are used to produce the terminal cross pigs. Are they F1's (first cross between two different pure breeds) or are the parents crosses also?

In most cases there AREN'T any pure breeds involved any more at all. They have created a composite and they breed those like they ARE a breed. Then they cross the maternal line sows with the paternal line boars to produce a terminal top hog. Every line is different. At some grandparent farms the boars and the sows of each line were the same. With others there were two grandparent lines that had to be crossed to produce the replacement gilts or boars.

 

[andybob]

The pig breeding companies maintain their purebred herds where ongoing improvement in each generation is the goal, and rapid generation turnover is practiced to achieve this.
A dam line large White line is basically a breed within a breed, and distinct from the equally fullblood Terminal Large white lines.
I was running F1s in the multiplyer unit 18 months ago, providing F2 gilts to the commercial units, improved genetics resulted in a change in policy, and now I have dam line Large whites and provide F1 lage White /Landrace. The terminal Boars were pure LWhite, but are now changing to a 3/4 LW 1/4 Hampshire crossbreed not a composite breed.
The use of crossbred boars is dependant on consistant quality and known genetic makeup to ensure the final results are consistant,buying boars of the same cross at the sale barn would definitely give unpredictable results.
Crossbred bulls can be used in a similar way,so long as the crosses in the two lines are compatable and consistant quality is guarenteed. Given the management needed in this scenario I would opt for the pure or composite breed bull on F1 or F2 females.

 

[dun]

The pig breeding companies maintain their purebred herds where ongoing improvement in each generation is the goal, and rapid generation turnover is practiced to achieve this.
A dam line large White line is basically a breed within a breed, and distinct from the equally fullblood Terminal Large white lines.
I was running F1s in the multiplyer unit 18 months ago, providing F2 gilts to the commercial units, improved genetics resulted in a change in policy, and now I have dam line Large whites and provide F1 lage White /Landrace. The terminal Boars were pure LWhite, but are now changing to a 3/4 LW 1/4 Hampshire crossbreed not a composite breed.
The use of crossbred boars is dependant on consistant quality and known genetic makeup to ensure the final results are consistant,buying boars of the same cross at the sale barn would definitely give unpredictable results.
Crossbred bulls can be used in a similar way,so long as the crosses in the two lines are compatable and consistant quality is guarenteed. Given the management needed in this scenario I would opt for the pure or composite breed bull on F1 or F2 females.

Where do the blue butt market hogs come from?

dun

 

[Brandonm2]

Where do the blue butt market hogs come from?

dun

It darn sure ain't from a Large White x a Large White (been there done that and those NPD LW hogs were the worst P.O.S. s I have ever had the misfortune of being associated with). That usually shows up from colored boars (usually Hampshire appearing) on the typical white sow. When we were raising Dekalbs (DK33s were the maternal line...I don't remember what they called the black boars) about 1/5 were blue butts. When we had the PIC cm13s we had less of those but more brown spotted pigs.

 

[andybob]

Correct Beandon, the hampshire percentage in the terminal boars is the main source,most breed companies are still using Duroc as well, mainly in their dam lines.

 

[Caustic Burno]

There is too much genetic variation in most purebred herds too. I'd rather have a crossbred bull from a breeder who has followed a consistant breeding program, over a purebred bull from someone who has chased every fad over the last 10+ years.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

Someone has finally said it!

I really don't understand this taboo against good crossbred bulls.

First Cypress there are to many genetics in the wood pile to get a consistant calf crop.
Second you have no idea what your getting in retaining heifers.
Third I am not looking for the 1200-1500 pound crossbred cow.
I am looking for a 900 to 1000 pound cow that weans a 600 pound calf.
It is a lot cheaper to upkeep a 1000 pound cow versus a 1500 pounder on grass.
I guess if you operate out of a sack it doesn't matter.

 

[ONLY-BEEF]

A 3 way cross turns out ta be yur best bet! Ifen ya got stright Herefords or Angus then leten a cross bred bull have a chance at em aint such a bad idea.

 

[la4angus]

Ifen ya got stright Herefords or Angus then leten a cross bred bull have a chance at em aint such a bad idea.

What breeds is in the make-up of leten. I never heard of that X before. I'm still trying to make out who Ifen is. Maybe your son or wife?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

O.k.

Thought I might try to stir it up a little.

The following is obviously for commercial cattle people

I think everyone is agreed upon the fact that crossbred cows are the most productive cows. F-1's, black baldies, tiger stripes, etc. It is generally accepted that this is due to hybrid vigor. With that in mind, why wouldn't a crossbred bull be a desirable bull to have? Crossbred bulls on F-1's could potentially give you a 4 way cross in the first generation. I'm not talking about a mutt bred from who knows what, but well bred, phenotypically correct bulls.

I realize that crossbreds are not in the seedstock supplier's best interest, but anyone have comments concerning this??? Please list your pro's and con's with reasoning for such.

I'll start it off by saying the first con could possibly be the lack of uniformity of a calf crop.

Actually seedstock producers would make MORE money off of this. Most commercial guys buy a bull every three to five years per thirty cows. IF they also had to buy the F1 heifers the seedstock operation's business model would be much more profitable. The problem with this system is the complexity and the discipline involved. Lets say your maternal cross was Angus x Hereford and your paternal cross was Black Simmental x Limousin. For this too work somewhere there has to be your 4way cross herd, a herd of Angus cows being bred to Hereford bulls, a herd of Limousin cows being bred to Simmental bulls, AND a herd of Limousins being bred straight Limousin, AND a herd of Anguses being bred straight Angus too produce the females for the multiplier farm.....plus you need a Hereford bull and/or semen source and a Simmental bull and/or semen source You can do this; but you need to really coordinate this with your seedstock suppliers. You CAN simplify this with composites, F1s x F1s bred like a pure breed ,but you would lose SOME heterosis effects. What invariably happens in roto-terminal or terminal crossbreeding systems is that the commercial cattleman gets tired of writing that big check to the seedstock guy for the heifers and he keeps back a set of his terminal heifers and the whole thing leads to mongrelization.

Brandon -
This is a 'well-thought-out answer! Your comment regarding simplification with using F1's is correct to a point - assuming you are maximizing quality with Phenotype AND Genotype. That is the 'stone wall' most breeders run into with their "complimentarity" focus. Just read some of the other comments on this very thread - it's all about "LOOKS", and Phenotype, but not a word about maximizing optimal genetics (EPD's).

Using AI with the BEST bulls (Phenotype AND Genotype) and ET with the VERY BEST Doner females (Phenotype AND Genotype) saves time, money AND allows the commercial cattlemen to select his replacements from his own herd, precluding his going 'out-of-herd' to do so. It results in less of a 'crap shoot' and minimizes mongrelization. "Cross Breeding" producers have proved that 75 to 100 pounds per calf is added by "Intelligent" breed and seedstock selection. But it cannot be by helter-skelter and with thoughtless selection. It is a BU$INE$$, folks!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Universities used to always preach that you don't want to mongrelize your herd by using crossbred bulls. Now they are talking a different tune. (Yes, the hog industry proved this fact).
If you have top quality parents of different breeds that compliment each other and are uniform in their makeup, than you can produce tremendous F1 bulls to be used on a purebred herd and produce uniform calf crops.
Angus & Red Angus herds have been using Simmental sires to produce that F1 cross bull and selling for as much (and sometimes more) than the purebred bulls. Same is true with the Simmental breeder using Angus or Red Angus sires. The trick is - they need to be mated with "like-kind" in phenotype, and complimentary in genotype.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I can't believe the discussion of crossbred bulls is popping up again..
ohh and sorry if the previous post is long but i think it has some good info in it.
What it boils down to when using crossbred bulls (and sorry guys, but Balancer and SimAngus bulls are crossbred bulls) is that you get too much genetic variation.

Diehard40 - Your hypothesis regarding "genetic variation" is correct, not only with crossbreeding programs, but with "regular" (if you will) matings also - - particularly if the breeder 'sloughs off' on his comparison with selection traits of 'functional' characteristics- skeletal structure, mammary structure, femininity, body capacity, disposition and fleshing ability. Since EPD's have dominated the selection process in the last few years, breeders have had a tendency to overlook those important traits referred to as 'functional', and mediocre attention to them and concentrating in an "UNBALANCED" manner with Growth, Carcass and Maternal characteristics will throw a monkey wrench into an otherwise well-thought out mating program.

I feel that moderation in all things and balancing traits and characteristics are the 'linchpins' of an optimal breeding program, and are absolutely necessary in order to keep a producer on a continually successful operation.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Brandonm2]

Using AI with the BEST bulls (Phenotype AND Genotype) and ET with the VERY BEST Doner females (Phenotype AND Genotype) saves time, money AND allows the commercial cattlemen to select his replacements from his own herd, precluding his going 'out-of-herd' to do so. DOC HARRIS

True, though when the commercial cattleman has to implement his own ET program to get satisfactory replacement heifers, we are getting awfully close to the end of the seedstock business as we know it. It MAY come to that.

 

[Wewild]

wrong post

 

[1848]

I can't believe the discussion of crossbred bulls is popping up again..
ohh and sorry if the previous post is long but i think it has some good info in it.
What it boils down to when using crossbred bulls (and sorry guys, but Balancer and SimAngus bulls are crossbred bulls) is that you get too much genetic variation.

I agree here. There is no prepotency, as in generations of breeding "like animals" with comparisons. The F1 crossbreeds are reasonably predicatble based on two consistently bred blood lines, but you would have to breed the crossbred bulls much like a seedstock breeder (through generations of recorded data) in order reduce the genetic variation...especially if you are breeding these bulls back to F1's.

 

[Tod Dague]

Here is some good info on cross breeding, feel free to ignore the Red Angus hype. http://redangus.org/index.php?option=co ... ad&gid=169
I especially found the table on feed conversion interesting at the bottom of page 7.

 

[donnaIL]

We have AI'd for the last few years... put a bull *cross bred* last year and got better calves than those premium angus bulls give through AI. We have a small and young herd (14) we selected and raised our cows from a young age. With AI, all we ever got was bulls, we will retain the few heifers that were born this year.

The bull was a hereford/angus/limo cross, a black baldie. Really put the butt on the calves and all of them straight as could be(we look for that), hope to get my skills up to speed and post some pics.

Just my opinion...I will never knock the crossbred bull again. Commercial farmer opinion.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I have been following this thread for over two weeks now, and have been eager to observe that - yes - by Golly - I believe that perhaps, finally, the irrefutable FACTS Ma'am - just the FACTS - were beginning to permeate the brains of serious BEEF CATTLE BREEDERS. And, to a great extent, I believe that is a true statement. However, just like everything else in this world, there are a few disbelieving die-hard's who either are natural skeptics and won't accept any premise which is in opposition to what they have always been told or grew up with, or they are too indolent ( I hesitate to say bone-lazy ) to put out the effort to learn something new.

Utilizing CROSS-BRED BULLS in a Terminal breeding progam has been proved over and over and over to increase the profit line of a producer that it is futile to continue to kick a dead horse. For those who continue to disbelieve proven facts I would say that they should log onto "Dogpile" or "Google" and do a thorough "Search" for "Cross Bred Bulls", and read the information contained therin! I have reports and articles on the subject spread all over my research desk and started to quote some of them for this post - - and suddenly realized that I could spend several hours just copying stuff that you could search out for yourself. So I will just set it as a homework assignment and see who can come up with the REAL :shock: EYE-OPENERS! :shock:

DOC HARRIS

 

[Beef11]

It seems like the problem in the industry right now is to much genetic variation. This could in part be explained by the many different enviroments operations run in. Hogs and chickens run in a shed and eat out of the truck. The enviroment doesn't account for the herd with 14 different breeds to varying degrees. We are seeing premiums for consistency now more than ever before we also see calves from certain regions being blackballed due to a reputaion of mixed breeds and poor quality and consistency. With NAID on the horizon we stand in an era were the future can be seen to some degree without the use of a crystal ball. The packers will trace poor and good cattle to their home ranch. With only a few major packers ranches that raise low quality calves will be marked and recieve less. The upside is if your cattle are of superior quality you will be able to demand a higher price for your calves and will recieve the credit that is due to you. The era of all calves are calves at the auction yard is coming to an end. That being said i would be a tad nervous about a 4 way cross If you had a herd of straightbred cows a crossbred bull might offer some benefits. Maybe an angus hybrid on straight angus cows would bolster the yield grade without the sacrifice of quality grade. Crossbred bulls have a place but it is doubtful if it is anything more than a niche.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

It seems like the problem in the industry right now is to much genetic variation. This could in part be explained by the many different enviroments operations run in. Hogs and chickens run in a shed and eat out of the truck. The enviroment doesn't account for the herd with 14 different breeds to varying degrees. We are seeing premiums for consistency now more than ever before we also see calves from certain regions being blackballed due to a reputaion of mixed breeds and poor quality and consistency. With NAID on the horizon we stand in an era were the future can be seen to some degree without the use of a crystal ball. The packers will trace poor and good cattle to their home ranch. With only a few major packers ranches that raise low quality calves will be marked and recieve less. The upside is if your cattle are of superior quality you will be able to demand a higher price for your calves and will recieve the credit that is due to you. The era of all calves are calves at the auction yard is coming to an end. That being said i would be a tad nervous about a 4 way cross If you had a herd of straightbred cows a crossbred bull might offer some benefits. Maybe an angus hybrid on straight angus cows would bolster the yield grade without the sacrifice of quality grade. Crossbred bulls have a place but it is doubtful if it is anything more than a niche.

Beef11 - It is obvious from this post that you have given this subject a lot of thought and consideration, and I applaud you for your perspicaciousness :shock: (How is THAT for a descriptive word?? ;-), and , unfortunately, I can easily understand how your scenario could be in effect. The answer, in my opinion, to negating the "mongrelizing" possibilities is the same protocol that all breeders should use in ANY breeding program - ELEVATING Genotype and Phenotype traits and characteristics in ALL seedstock whether purebred OR crossbred! I am sure that every breeder who has been in the business for any period of time at all has seen some crossbred bulls and cows that were better representatives of fine breeding stock than a lot of purebreds - and those are the kind of crossbred bulls and cows I would be seeking for a Terminal program, or if I were raising stock for a Terminal seedstock market.

In a lot of the research papers that I have on crossbreeding beef cattle it seems that even the researchers tend to stress the COLOR that results from crossbreeding! That is just plain HOG (if you'll excuse the term) WASH! Optimal EPD's and Phenotype will circumvent "color" if the IMF, uREA, uFAT, Yield Grade and $Profit factors bring the producer money in his pocket for the effort and $$ expended. He is NOT raising "sweet" and "cute" and "adorable" in spite of the fact that they may be all of those things. Longhorn breeders may be the exception to this rule, but for the most part they are not raising "WHAT'S FOR DINNER!"

Crossbreeding is a heck of a lot MORE than just a niche!

DOC HARRIS

 

[BRG]

Yes it is Doc, but it is more wisely used if it is on the commercial cow end. When you use a crossbred bull, the guy making the bull gets most of the heterosis, and guying buying/using the bull gets the left overs.

I still say have a straight blood cow and use another breed to cross it with (Hereford X Angus or Angus X Char) Not saying these are the breeds you need to use, but just an example. This will give you your best results and the cattle will be more even or consistant if you are buying the same kinds/types of bulls year in and year out from the same bull supplier.